Shrimp, a conservative blogger at Shellfish asked the secretary of the ELCA for a current status report on ELCA defections. Secretary David Swartling responded with the following update:
As of February 3, we have been advised that 220 congregations have taken votes to leave the ELCA. In 156 congregations, the first vote passed; in 64 congregations the first vote failed. 28 congregations have taken a second vote, all of which passed.
Remember, the ELCA consists of over ten thousand congregations spread over sixty five regional synods. The ELCA secretary noted that sixteen of the synods (1/4th) “have not reported any congregations that have voted to terminate their relationship with the ELCA.”
Shrimp made no comment on these findings, and for good reason. These numbers don’t fit the Lutheran CORE goal of a “reconfiguration of North American Lutheranism.” Lutheran pastor John Petty earlier suggested that a minimum of one thousand congregations would be necessary for a new denomination to be viable, and even then it would be small. That would be smaller than the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS claims 1,290 churches according to its website), which ranks a weak third in size behind the ELCA and LCMS even in its prime Midwest region. For comparison, the Association of Free Lutheran Churches (AFLC) claims 270 congregations, and the Lutheran Brethren 123.
These numbers beg another question: why is there a single large moderate Lutheran denomination and half a dozen, smaller, conservative ones? Is there something inherent in those who erect boundaries that makes them more exclusive? Pup tents vs big tent?
We are now approaching half a year since the church wide assembly in Minneapolis. These first six months have seen the plucking of the “low hanging fruit”, congregations that already had one foot out the door, including mega-churches in Glendale, Arizona and Lakeville, Minnesota. What will the next six months and beyond bring?
Without meaning to diminish the deep hurt in departing congregations and in many that remain in conflict within the ELCA, this first half year since CWA09 hardly signals the seismic shift predicted by the Lutheran CORE rabble rousers nor the wrenching schism that the media trumpets every time this congregation or that one votes to depart. What can the holier-than-thou trinity of Lutheran CORE, WordAlone Network, and Lutheran Congregations in Ministry truly aspire to? Another Lutheran Brethren? Another AFLC? Another WELS? Another LCMS? A “reconfiguration of North American Lutheranism”?
Steady as she goes.
It takes a good amount of effort to jump through all the hoops the ELCA tries to demand…in order to finally sever the relationship…including two votes, with a 90 day waiting period, etc. So, I’m not surprised that it has been a gradual stream of congregations leaving the ELCA…but the number will be increasing. LCMC has had over 100 new congregations join since August, and more are coming every day. Another important factor to consider is what churches are leaving and which are staying. Many of the churches leaving are the one’s growing rapidly and have a distinct evangelism focus (i.e. Hosanna in Lakeville, Joy in Glendale, Shepherd of the Valley, Afton, MN…etc.). Many of the churches left in the ELCA are dying out quickly. So even without thousands of churches, there will be a reconfiguration of Lutheranism…in that the ELCA will continue to bleed members and money…and slip into irrelevance. And the new associations will continue to grow in number, money, and strength. Praise God!
In Upstate NY, there hasn’t been much movement until recently. I think there are 4-5 churches who are thinking about leaving the ELCA. At least 3 of them have been ready to go since Called to Common Mission and this was the last straw so to speak. Only one has been a surprise to me, since the church’s website promotes loving God and loving neighbors, being made up of saints and sinners, and says that all are welcome. Hence the surprise on my part.
Otherwise, it has been pretty quiet, until last week when CORE announced they were going to have a meeting in my backyard (not literally). The church they are meeting at has an interim and was also part of Word Alone, but never left the ELCA.
@WildFan
It is curious how you cheerlead the ELCA “slip into irrelevance” and praise God in the same breath. Nothing like Christian love.
@WildFan
This is wishful thinking at best. There are plenty of ELCA churches that are growing around the nation or not “bleed[ing] members.” WildFan, this, more likely, demonstrates your own desire to wish vengeance upon the ELCA for decisions you do not agree with. Ten years from now, the ELCA will still be the largest Lutheran denomination in the US. I have no doubt about this. This hubbub over “the gays” will pass. By the next CWA, LCMC will still be the fledgling denomination it was five years ago.
@WildFan
LCMC is hardly a denomination. Does it have any seminaries (excluding the Baptist seminaries it lists on its website)? A disaster response branch? World Hunger Branch? Pension and health benefits for pastors? International Lutheran partners? Poverty ministries? Mission support at home and abroad?
The list of ELCA missions and ministries goes on and on while LCMC merely has a website and a mailing list.
We are in a post-denominational age. A USA Today article recently pointed out 17% of Americans are loyal to their toothpaste brand, and 14% of Americans are loyal to their denomination. Denominations have become more and more unsustainable with huge bureaucracies and structures (i.e. we’ve already seen the national office and many synods laying people off). Associations and networks are the future of the church. Why send money to a bunch of middle men and administrators, when you can give directly to ministries on the ground actively engaged in mission. That, to me, is good stewardship. I would rather give directly to missions, than send it to Chicago, to be filtered through multiple offices and divisions.
By the way, I never said LCMC is a denomination. It is not, it is an association of churches…
LCMC has partnerships with numerous seminaries (including Luther, and The Master’s Institute–both solidly Lutheran). This again is good stewardship. Instead of incurring the high costs of bricks and mortar…and also seeing that the seminary model is going to have to change to account for shortages of pastors and students who can afford to spend 4 years in this process…LCMC has chosen to be creative and forward thinking (and this is exactly the discussion(s) that are happening at Luther Seminary and others). LCMC does have excellent pensions and health benefits (that rival or exceed anything the ELCA offers) for pastors and staff. LCMC encourages churches to give a vast majority of their benevolence dollars directly to ministries. They ask for no more than $1000 a year to help pay for their modest administrative costs. LCMC’s yearly budget is $250,000. The ELCA’s is over $77 million. Again, is this good stewardship? Giving directly to ministries and missions (instead of a large national office) helps close partnerships and relationships to develop.
Finally, I have no ill will towards the ELCA, as some have accused. I hope my brothers and sisters in Christ thrive and grow. But the whole tenor of the original post…seems to be an attempt to downplay the significance of the shift happening in the ELCA, and in the church worldwide. Whether 100s of churches decide to move on, or 1000s–there is a major configuration going on in Lutheranism. And people can choose to dismiss it as not a big deal. Or maybe they can use this as a catalyst for looking to the future, and seeking what God desires to do in the church.
@WildFan
Your implication that there are no benefits from a denominational structure and that the $77 million budget of the ELCA is rife with waste runs counter to the following words of Erma Wolf, one of the chief spokespersons of Lutheran CORE, who recently urged CORE followers to support Haiti relief THROUGH THE ELCA because:
Again, you put words in my mouth! I never said there are “no benefits”. The ELCA does MANY good things. I’m just pointing out that with the current state of denominations (all mainline denominations are in steady decline…as Mark Hanson noted at the CWA, the ELCA has lost over 500,000 members during his tenure alone…and has lost members every year of its existence…except ’90 and ’91), with current economic difficulties nationwide. The simple question is…is a large national office, with 65 other regional offices, with a multi-million dollar budget sustainable going into the future? With many layoffs already, Augsburg Fortress pension fund fiasco, etc., etc. Maybe there needs to be a new model going into the future. Denominations (as they are structured presently) are a very 50s and 60s phenomenon. They mirrored the mergers and acquisitions of the large corporations. We’ve seen the problems large corporations have had over the past decades. Many of the same are showing up in mainline denominations.
Tomorrow is the night we know what is going on in my church. I really feel that this move from the ELCA is going to be a more gradual thing than the conservatives thought it would be. As soon as people found out that they don’t have to call a gay pastor, some of them calmed down. An LCMC speaker warned us though that that could change in the future. It hasn’t yet and maybe won’t. I have been cautioning people in our church that neither LCMC nor Lutheran CORE are ready to go yet and won’t be until June or August. After that, I think we will see whether or not the gay issue is really going to be completely divisive.
Sounds like someone is fear-mongering in an attempt to get people to leave. I’ve never heard of a congregation being forced to accept a pastor they did not want.
LCMC is wrong to insinuate that “this may change.” Congregations call pastors, and this will never change. No on forces a congregation to call a woman; the congregation itself is charged with discerning who they think will be the best leader for them.
I think what the LCMC rep may be referring to, is the unwieldy nature of these new ministry recommendations. Are there going to be a bunch of boxes for pastoral candidates to check (single, married, gay-partnered, gay-single, so on and so forth)? This is not allowed in the business world. Will it be allowed in churches, in the call process? How long before someone is picked at a church, and then later surprises them with some further personal details? (This, of course, could go for either heterosexual or homosexual candidates).
Another important questions comes with the blessing of same sex unions. The recommendations right now speak broadly of “bound conscience”. But look at Canada, where it is becoming “hate speech” to speak with “bound conscience” about homosexuality being sin, and refusing to bless unions. How long before this happens in the America? Can the GoodSoils and other such organization assure us that they will not try to push things this far??
I have said it before, and I will say it again: to believe that either a candidate or a synod will secretly attempt to insert gay clergy into an inhospitable parish is rank paranoid conspiracy theory. As if a gay person would willingly invite the “clobbering” that would ensue and as if a synod bishop enjoys dealing with parishes in conflict.
When I was in law school many years ago, a professor suggested that lacking a good argument, some lawyers will fall back on the “parade of horribles”, a diversionary tactic that shifts focus away from the issue at hand to a list of remote possibilities that could happen–the lack of probability and common sense be damned.
Why this is even being brought up? Canada is an entirely different country. Canada has laws against hate speech that extend beyond comments regarding homosexuality. Many of the 1st amendment rights the KKK and white supremacists enjoy in the US do not exist in Canada. It is not so simplistic in Canada that those who are speaking with “bound conscience” are instantly labeled as “hate speech.” Please read about Canada and its laws before implying that. Just because something isn’t permitted in Canada does not mean it will automatically not be permitted in the U.S.
@WIldFan
Me thinks thee does protest a bit too much.
So why do people want to leave to join LCMC?? I don’t get it.
Our congregation voted to leave Monday by a vote of 86% for and 14 % against leaving. But about 25% of the congregation was at the meeting to vote. How did this happen? About 2 1/2 years ago we called a new pastor. At the time I didn’t know what Word Alone meant so I voted to accept him. He does decent sermons emphasizing forgiveness of sin and has a naughty cute puppet for the children’s sermon. However, under the surface, he was working against the ELCA. He didn’t like the benevolences that ELCA was expecting. In our church that was $27,000 for 2009. He also was against having bishops present at ordinations. When the gay vote passed in August, he said that it was either the church pulled out of the ELCA or he would leave. He got the church council on his side and they got the first vote passed with a good deal of gay bashing. When our former pastor left a few years ago , he had cancer but the day after he left, he filed for divorce. There was a lot of talk in this town of 4,700 that he had run off with the church secretary. I think this vote is a backlash for this rumor among other things.
One thing asked when the LCMC representative talked to us was about fees. He answered that the association would like $200 a month from member churches. In the LCMC association, the local congregation is almost an independent church. They are free to use any convenient Bible Camps, counseling services, etc. They are not bound by synod. Word Alone is the parent organization of both LCMC and Lutheran CORE. My problem with them is the term Orthodox Lutheran which was defined as “your grandmother’s church”. I grew up in that and I don’t really want to go back to it.
When I joined a Lutheran church 38 years ago their theology was straightforward. The Word Alone, By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone. Since the forming of the ELCA it has become The Word as influenced by current culture, By Cheap Grace, By Faith when its convenient. The changes made in the Synod should be troubling to all Lutherans. If its not, they don’t understand that in 4000 years of Judeo Christian history rabbis, priests, ministers, bishops all believed that a particular action was sinful (i.e sex outside of marriage). Now 600 people voted that its not and the followers are mostly like sheep. Martin Lutheran stood up to the abuses in the only Roman Catholic Church because it was the right thing to do. Lutheran Christians need to heed this action. Study Scripture as to what God did to those who began listening to the culture and not to the Word and tradition. They were dispersed and reprimanded. This could be us.
Church follows like sheep.
@victor v stevens
Mr. Stevens,
I’m sure you’re very sincere in your comments, but your view is too simple. The Bible is not merely a book of instructions that offers clear guidance for all situations. Moral discernment is a serious matter that requires input from scripture, tradition, reason, and experience. Luther agreed that conscience and reason must inform our understanding of scripture.
You are correct that those who think like me accept input from modern culture in the form of data supplied by the disciplines of science and social science and the lessons of human experience. But it is simplistic and more than a little condescending to suggest that we are merely sheep following willy-nilly the winds of popular culture. You do the depth of our moral deliberations a disservice. If we heeded only the Biblical world view and disregarded scientific advances since the ancient texts were written, we would still believe in a flat earth at the center of the universe with sun and stars rotating around us–matters of some controversy in their day, but ultimately the view of modern science prevailed and the understanding of the ancients discarded.
You also pay too little heed to the culture of the Biblical authors who understood many things very differently than we do now. If we mean to take the Bible seriously and not as an unquestioned idol, we must understand the cultural context in which the ancient texts were penned.
I want to comment on the origianl post not this thread above me.
I’m sorry if this bursts anyone’s bubble but: even with so few congregations leaving this is still a difficult moment in the ELCA. I am sure that the ELCA will survive and will remain the largest Lutheran denomination but the original poster fails to take into account the following:
I caa only speak for what I know about our synod but almost every congregation has had members leave, others getting upset and some rejoicing over the decisions at CWA09.
While some congregations are not leaving they are withholding or lowering their financial support of the synod. In 2008, our synod’s budget was $2,100,000 and for 2010 it is projected to be $1,400,000.
There are also congregations (mostly previous LCA congregations) that are dual rostering to place themselves out of compliance with the ELCA constitution so they will be removed from the ELCA. For if they leave they must surrender their property but if they are kicked out they get to keep it.
On the other side, thet LCMC folks are forgetting the fact that the ELCA is part of the larger Lutheran world and supports many outside efforts like LDR, LIRS, ELCA World Hunger, and LWF. The LCMC association has none of those obligations or responsibilities.
But both are forgetting the biggest problem from this whole affair: while we have fiddled like Nero, Rome is burning. Lutheranism as a whole is on the decline in the US and probably will decline further as congregations age & die OR fight and split OR turn their back on Lutheran theology and sacraments to take on a Therology of Glory so they can compete with the mega-churches.
While we are fighting about an issue that will die with our generation like segregation died with the presidential run of George Wallace, our Lutheran voice is growing silent amongst the Christian community. What we really need to do is stop worrying about what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms and worry about the lost souls who need to hear the life-giving Gospel about Jesus.
But doing that will mean that both sides will have to quit squabling, compromise, and focus on the Love of God as seen in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
I’m not going to hold my breath.
I am glad I found a God who accepts me as I am. I suffer from OCD translated into unwelcome thoughts I get obsessed with. The confession of sins of thought,word, and deed used to haunt me and make me feel I was a horrible sinner and a bad person. When I found out it was a brain disfunction, what a relief. God truly accepts me as I am and helps me in my struggles. Please, ELCA keep preaching God’s love. I want a church where pastors are trained to recognize mental illness and know enough to refer people to proper help. That does not mean I am not a sinner. But I seemed to be confusing temptation with sin some of the time.
@WIldFan
Um, really? Because the mega-church near my work has the pastor arrive by helicopter so that he can get from one mega-church to the other on time. (And no, I’m not kidding.) ELCA isn’t glory-driven by a long shot.
@House of Brat
So one bad egg makes ALL mega-churches bad, huh?! Great logic… That is equivalent to saying a church like http://www.herchurch.org with it’s wacky theology means ALL ELCA churches are in the same boat.
The theology of glory isn’t so much about transportation (although I would acknowledge your example is ridiculous….but also NOT the norm). It is about how we handle law and gospel. Forde says, “A theologian of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theologian of the cross calls the things what it actually is.” Many ELCA churches are not willing to call sin sin…or evil evil. Instead they opt for a theology of glory–telling eveyone they are all right just they way they are (without confession, repentance, transformation). This is cheap grace. It cheapens Jesus sacrifice and death on the cross. He died to save sinners (not to allow us to continue affirming our sinful paths). God loves each of us too much to let us stay the way we are!
Finally there are plenty of great Lutheran mega-churches with solid theology. The suspicion or jealousy or distaste that many ELCA folks have for churches that are doing great outreach and evangelism…will further hasten the decline of the denomination. My prayer would be that people would look to successful practitioners for training and education about how to spread the good new of Jesus to all people, instead of dismissing them as somehow doing things wrong. Remember healthy things grow!
Just as there can be a bad egg or a bad apple in a basket. How can we evaluate a mega church organization on what one person or one pastor does ? The whole gay pastor thing got blown way out of control. My experience as a lifetime Lutheran has shown me both saints and sinners in the clergy . Some can preach. Some can teach. Some can counsel. Just as there are varieties of spiritual gifts so they are spread out in the church. I will say that I stopped subscribing to “The Lutheran” because I felt it wasn’t worth the paper it was written on. I will say there were some wonderful writers in “Lutheran Voices” who proved to be disappointing in life style. I don’t agree that everyone has the same path to eternal life, but we can sit down to lunch together and talk about our common human ground. If we read Spong, we may agree or disagree with his thoughts. Renewal comes when we seek to do the will of God and live by Christ’s example in treating each other. The promise of John 3:16 must be preached and heard.
@WIldFan
Statements like these remind me of the old adage that those who are solely focused on fighting evil will become evil themselves. There is a difference between focusing on sin to fight evil instead of cultivating good to replace evil/sin. How is it that those who focus solely on the sins of others do not become evil themselves? For those who spend their time on pointing out sin, evil, sin, evil and more sin cannot devote their time and energy to the development of good. They are like farmers who would rather burn their fields lest one bad seed arise rather than work on proper cultivation to benefit an entire crop.
@House of Brat
Jesus didn’t seem to have a problem naming sin (i.e. “go and sin no more”). And he told the disciples “if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”. Reread your Small Catechism…it’s called the Office of the Keys! The point is to recognize that we are all sinners, in need of a savior. Your post is disingenuous to imply that we are all about just focusing on people’s sins. Law and Gospel go hand in hand…
Martin Luther said, “The first duty of the Gospel preacher is to declare God’s Law and show the nature of sin, because it will act as a schoolmaster and bring him to everlasting life which is in Jesus Christ” (from his Preface to the Romans).
Today, I let the LCMC congregation meet as usual at the church but 15 of us were inspired to meet as an ELCA mission church. We will need help getting started and we will need some music. We sang heartily hymns we knew accapella. Most of all I felt at home. The Spirit was there with us.
@WIldFan
“Go and sin no more” is NOT a statement wherein a “sin” is named. And if that’s your attempt is to criticize me for what I said earlier, then you need to look at the entire passage, which would be John 8:11. Because what Jesus said to the “adulterous woman” was
You don’t seem to get, WIldFan, that your previous comment
is more about condemnation that it is about forgiveness of sins. Hence my previous comment about over-focusing on sin to the dereliction of the good.
I’m not even going to bother with your other statements about the Small Catechism (and the Office of the Keys!) because you’re willing to overlook Jesus’s statements in full. Jesus didn’t condemn the woman, but it’s pretty clear you want to condemn the ELCA for allegedly–and, really, let’s not forget the alleged portion here, you haven’t proven anything regarding this accusation of yours–preaching a “theology of glory” where up is down and down is up.
You commented earlier on “cheap grace.”
I think you should re-read John 8:1-11 again since you were so ready to use it. Do you think the woman in the story got “cheap grace?” After all, she offers no statement of repentance for her sins. She didn’t confess to adultery either. To top it off, the passage doesn’t state that she left her life of sin, i.e. no transformation. Jesus essentially just let her go, and she leaves. Based on your statement above, “without confession, repentance, transformation,” the woman was given “cheap grace” BY JESUS. So perhaps you should ease up a bit on talking about sin and focus a bit more on cultivating the good.
@House of Brat
Ha! Priceless! What a perfect “ELCA-type” response:
You join in the ELCA’s willingness to disregard major parts of the Lutheran Confessions and Scripture. That tells me a lot!
Now for John 8. First, are you equating yourself (or anyone else for that matter) to Jesus. The woman had personally encountered Jesus. Transformation comes through connecting with him. My job, as a pastor, is to help people recognize their sinfulness (hold up a mirror as Luther said)–which is the law…with the sole purpose to show them their need for Jesus, their savior–the gospel! By the way, notice Jesus didn’t say, “Continue on doing what you’re doing.” When we connect with Jesus–he brings transformation through the holy spirit. I would refer you to the third article of the creed in Luther’s small catechism (about the Holy Spirit’s role in sanctification)…but I guess the Small Catechism doesn’t hold much water for you.
Finally…remember:
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. IF WE CLAIM WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM OUT TO BE A LIAR AND HIS WORD HAS NO PLACE IN OUR LIVES.” (1 John 1:8-10)
Some of you people are sounding a lot like Word Alone/LCMC. Did you infiltrate? Or are you really LCMS?
@Lilly
I’m totally in agreement with you on that.
@WIldFan
I don’t see a point in arguing over yet another text when you can’t even bother to look at the entire passage of a text you cited first.
No, I’m looking at Jesus’s example. By the way, let’s remember that I my previous comment above was in relation to your accusations that the ELCA preaches a “theology of glory.” I notice that you didn’t even bother to post on that. Are you just dropping that argument in attempt to deflect and comment about the Small Catechism instead? Looks like it is. It appears you don’t want to respond to my request for proof on the “theology of glory” accusation at all.
As I noted previously, Jesus did not condemn the woman. He didn’t ask for a confession. He didn’t make a big speech about asking her to repent before he said, “Go and sin no more.” I noted these things because you stated that the ELCA was doing “cheap grace.” Again, something you didn’t even bother to address in your last comment.
I noted these things because you, WIldFan, made a big deal out of not calling “sin sin” or “evil evil.” Because concentrating on sin seems to be the focus of your comments. Again, look at the entire passage of John 8:1-11. Did Jesus make a big deal about calling “sin sin” or “evil evil?” That is my point. It’s not that I go around saying that certain people are sinners and certain people aren’t, which I can only imagine is your rationale for quoting 1 John 1:8-10. But you need to look beyond that (sin) and focus on cultivating the good within people.
Your own comment that
implies that focusing on sin is more important than focusing on love. What’s the Golden Rule? That you should love your neighbor as yourself. It is not that you should find sin within your neighbor so constantly that when someone accepts another person as who they are that you should immediately find fault with them because they are both sinners.
Wow! I guess welcome and acceptance isn’t granted to ALL people, after all! That’s all right, I’ll leave this board to all the folks who’s posts agree and affirm the ELCA’s talking points…
PS Obie, I really appreciate your willingness to allow a spirited discussion on your blog. God’s blessings to you!
Well, Wild Fan, I am sorry I hurt your feelings. It is just that I hear all these Bible quotes and not explanations of what they really mean. Just what is your definition of sin ? I find it is an all inclusive word that theologians seem to use to scare people. Or is it just a nice way to talk about illicit sex without shocking the little old ladies ? Quoting scripture is fine as long as it includes “What does this mean ? Life is quite different than it was 2000 years ago but people are much the same. They didn’t have TV telling them how to live and how to mess up their lives. But we do and our kids do.
@WildFan
I will pray for you… that the lord may free your heart of the hate that dwells within it… I will try to not hate you and remember to love the sinner and hate your sin!
May the love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you and may he free you from your sin of hate.
I will also pray for those churches that do not love everyone and choose to not welcome them and pray that the lord will forgive their sins.
Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
—Ezekiel 16:49-50
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
—Matthew 10:14-15
@WildFan
Do you really believe all that you say?