The two church leaders and longtime friends saw things differently. At the risk of their friendship, they openly opposed each other as they argued before the assembly.
One of them sensed that church unity was jeopardized, that the break from tradition that his friend proposed would splinter the church, that his friend’s radical views of justice and inclusivity were misguided. He was sure that his friend’s insistence upon full participation for those whose behavior insulted the norms of their religious tradition would offend and frighten the faithful core. It was not that his faction was unwelcoming–they merely asked that all obey the traditional understanding of God’s own law, affirmed by countless generations of God’s faithful. By refusing to conform, were not these radicals denying the very authority of God?
When his friend stubbornly insisted on full participation for those unwilling to follow the law, the fabric of the church was irreparably ripped apart. The hurtful words spoken by his once dear friend lingered long in the collective memory of his faction. Why, he dared to accuse them of hypocrisy and failing to act consistently with the truth of the gospel.
“How can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
His friend Paul spoke those words, but Peter and the faithful core persisted, remaining true to tradition and Torah. They would not break bread with unclean Gentiles. Peter was right about Paul’s inclusive agenda splintering the church. After this confrontation before the assembly–this incident in Antioch–the rift between the Torah-abiding traditionalists and the Torah-breaking, uncircumcised Gentiles became a gaping chasm.
And Paul writes to the young pastor Timothy “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Paul’s own teachings were tested to Scripture by the Bereans, “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11
By the way, the Scriptures included the Torah. Hardly Torah breaking.
Yes, we ARE repeating history. False teaching continues to seep into the Faith, as it has in the past, and is held up as truth by revisionists. “Nothing new under the sun” here. That be the CORE of the issue.
@Pastor Cary Larson
For one who touts the Bible as you do, your comments betray a lack of serious Biblical scholarship–instead, a tendency toward literalism and biblicism. For instance, there are few, if any, serious Bible scholars who believe Paul himself wrote the letter to Timothy.
@Pastor Cary:
But who gets to declare what and who commands scriptural authority? I’ve blogged about this myself and am quite frustrated by such declarations.
It isn’t about revisioning the Bible. It’s about factions declaring scriptural authority and shutting down any meaningful dialog. Any time I read or hear someone claiming that Scriptural Authority trumps new policies and practices, you might as well be saying, Scriptural Authority (ie, my groups’ decision) states that XYZ is wrong, there fore anyone/thing in contradtion is(insert epithet of choice including, but not limited to unchurched, apostate, Liberal Lutheran, unbiblical). It’s a cheap way to claim the scriptural and moral high ground. As I have posted before, it is like playing Rock, Paper, Scissors and someone whips out Nuclear Bomb.
It’s a cudgel meant to shut down discussion and willfully ignore other viewpoints.
There are some who say ordaining women comes from false teaching. Paul lobbed it out there in several passages that women should remain silent in church and not hold authority over men.
Yet even the traditionalists give these passages some wiggle room and ordain women.
Looking back at the Reformation, isn’t one of the reasons Luther diassociated from Rome was the concept of Sola Scritpura and how the powerful (ie, the Pope)could interpret scripture and forbid any debate?
Isn’t that what is going on now–a powerful few declaring their interprations as the One True Whatever? If that’s the case, aren’t many of the traditionalists revisiting history and becoming the unconquerable high ground that Luther himself had problems with?
History does repeat itself unfortunately by people who really don’t know history or don’t care. If you want to be Biblical, Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, David and Bathsheba are all examples of SIN in the Bible. Oh my yes, there are lots of sinful situations in the Bible but Jesus forgave the people and in other words told them they could do better. He did not condemn them to hell . Why are so many Lutheran pastors doing that ? The other night, my grandson graduated from high school. His dad was there with her partner, part of the family, although more x family for me. In this society, we do not shoot people who are different unless they have committed a crime. Yes, it is sin, but what are you going to do about it? Making a lot of noise and looking stupid doing it isn’t going to change society. Being kind might.
@Lilly
Remember Lilly, though, that “nice” is not the same as “kind.” Too many confuse the two
@Kelly
You do recognize that both sides do this, right? 🙂
@ Jesus of Nazareth
For one who touts the Bible as you do, your comments betray a lack of serious Biblical scholarship–instead, a tendency toward literalism and biblicism. For instance, there are few, if any, serious Bible scholars who believe Moses himself wrote Genesis.
Yeah, I’m a literalist. I believe in a historical Jesus who is the Son of God. I believe his birth to be literally divine in nature and yet human. I believe he lived a perfect life in our stead. I believe he really died for our real sins and our real sinful nature. I believe that he physically rose from the dead, left his tomb and ascended into heaven. And his righteousness is imputed unto us by the sacraments. I believe what the Scripture say about Jesus as the ONLY TRUE way of salvation. To receive this other than literally leaves us dead in our sins.
Yeah, I’m a literalist and you know many scholars beyond enlightened mainstream Christians believe Jesus was a literalist too. So I’m in good company. We know Luther was a man, yet he was brilliant and he too was a literalist, so again I’m in good company.
Odie – As for the authenticity of Paul being the author of the letters to Timothy, the predominate Christian scholar view ( which has been since the early Church) that the letters to Timothy were written in 64 AD. These were Paul’s last letters and were written while in prison held by Nero. Just read the text of these books. Very typical of Paul’s writings. Tradition holds that Timothy died a martyr’s death in Ephesus a few years later. At the beginning of the book Paul states that he is writing these letters to Timothy. It is believed that both Timothy and Paul died before 68 AD.
The only true debate about who wrote any of the New Testament books is Hebrews, as I was taught by Luther Seminary professors so I’m going to receive their position as called teachers of God’s word over amateur theologians. Most biblical scholars (especially beyond the mainstream liberal churches) believe that it was probably Paul that wrote Hebrews and yet we don’t know for sure.
Kelly- Yes, one of the major themes of the Reformation was the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. As you know the rub was human beings placing their authority over Scripture. Remember, Sola Scriptura is about Scripture interpreting itself. The fact is that Rome still places church tradition (pope et. al.) alongside and sometimes over Scripture. Hmmmm, Human experience and understanding over Scripture. Who could ever do that in this enlightened world?
Lilly- Jesus clearly warned of condemnation in parable form, as in sheep and goats, wheat and tares, Lazarus and the rich man etc. Yes, Jesus was always quick to offer forgiveness (Thank You, Jesus!) but he never denied the repercussions of not abiding in him. I’m confused by your comment about Lutheran pastors. Who said anything about killing or pointing a finger and say “You’re damned!” I have never said that nor have I heard any pastor whom I associate with proclaim judgement on anyone. God is the judge of all. Concerning your question “…what are you going to do about it?” I see as a pastor I have two options: A) Smile and nod and permit people to wallow in their sin without a warning from me (as is part of the responsibility of the office of ministry and as I take the scripture literally, there is a harsh word for pastors who turn a blind eye as recorded in the Scriptures) or B) Do as a pastor is called to do. Speak the truth in love. Encourage repentance and offer the assurance of the God’s enduring love through Christ Jesus to all sinners ( you and me and the world ).
Bottom line, You betcha, I’m a literalist and tomorrow we will celebrate the Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit because we find it in the Bible. Literally.
@Pastor Cary Larson
Yesterday, I posted an article that suggested the intellectual spokesmen for the schismatics tended to help the ELCA cause by their elitism. At the other end of the intellectual spectrum, the literalists also help the ELCA cause by revealing a naive view of scripture that undercuts their Biblical arguments in the current debates.
If you think the seminary professors at Luther taught a literal interpretation of scripture, that the authorship of NT books is settled according to ancient tradition, and that Hebrews was probably written by Paul, I can only suggest that you weren’t paying attention in class.
By the way, if you read this blog with the same clarity you claim for your Bible reading, you would know my name is Obie not “Odie”.
@Pastor Cary Larson
Wow Pastor Cary, I guess I hit a nerve. Now if you would be so kind as to go and talk to my ex son-in-law, get her to reverse her transgender surgery, get her to stop practicing Wicca, get her out of the group that practices bondage etc.just by your preaching, maybe we would get somewhere. That is what I mean by what are you going to do about it? My grandchildren are grown now, but were you there to counsel them when they went through their dad’s transition ,when he was bringing home all kinds of transgendered weirdos ? You can call sin what you want but I call it life. In our area we have a LCMS pastor who is quick to tell anyone from an ELCA church that they are going to Hell. If you haven’t, thank you.
@Obie Holmen
OBIE, (LOL) I love it when you get all haute on me. Nice dismissive terminology and it is said here that it is my group who is so dismissive. Pot – kettle.
With fairness to you, I don’t think we are defining “literalist” the same. I read from the ESV not the KJV and I have both eyes and hands in spite of them causing me to sin. Clearly Jesus wasn’t speaking literally so don’t go all extreme on me. However when Jesus is recorded as saying he is the only way and that he dies to save the world from eternal damnation, I’ll take him at his word. In other words, I simply attempt to say what the Bible itself says, without adding anything to it or taking anything away from it. After alI, I don’t think there is a true literalist alive because we all know the world is not flat. However, in light of the post-modern criticism of Scripture, I would be considered a “literalist”. That is one who hold an extremely high view of Scripture and even goes as far as say the Bible is inerrant.
@Tony Stoutenburg
Tony, unless your family has experienced GLBT in the family, it would be hard for anyone to decide whether to be nice or to be kind. My x son in law’s family almost died from the experience but have accepted it now after 6 years. We see her at family gatherings and I am polite and I talk to her a bit. The kids aged 18 and 20 now have to live with this and the best way to live with her is to be inclusive. She seems to be doing ok right now and recently bought a house with her partner, another transexual. If one is a stranger, they wouldn’t know the difference. My daughter is going to miss the child support now that the boy is 18.
@Lilly
Nice: Pleasing and agreeable in nature.
Kind: having a friendly or generous nature or attitude.
I differentiate between them as nice is designed to ingratiate me to you. Kind is to speak the truth in love. Not easy … and I am not judging you or your actions in re to your grandchildren’s father …
That is one definition of “kind” another is to be “charitable”. That is the one I am taking. You know Tony, or maybe you don’t , the deeper you get into this discussion, the more your biases show. I am still having a hard time trying to figure out what church I want to go to and about the time I think I might go back to the LCMC church, someone comes up with a strict interpretation that I can’t stomach.
@Tony Stoutenburg
Tony, this whole family situation has thrown me for a loop and continues to do so. I could care less whether I am being kind or nice. I am getting tired of the various churches’ handling of the GLBT issue. Right now I don’t care if I go to any church because there will always be someone who is “holier than thou.” Given time I may go back to a church. May you have a nice summer.
On our most sacred rite- the Lord’s Supper
In visiting other churches I have finally noticed how preoccupied with SIN Lutherans are. I want to ask- is having communion every service- a kind of works righteousness ? The Jews have a Day of Atonement once a year where they now throw pebbles in the river or stream to represent their sins. When I was a kid we only had communion about once a month. Other churches have it every two weeks. Of course I would skip some Sundays when there wasn’t communion. Has our communion become another Catholic ritual that is part of the Mass ?
While I had found that going to communion every week strengthened me spiritually for the next week, I am wondering if the frequency has made it lose some of its meaning ? You WA’s seem to be trying to do away with some of the Catholic traditions- how do you feel about it.
On our most sacred rite- the Lord’s Supper
In visiting other churches I have finally noticed how preoccupied with SIN Lutherans are. I want to ask- is having communion every service- a kind of works righteousness ? The Jews have a Day of Atonement once a year where they now throw pebbles in the river or stream to represent their sins. When I was a kid we only had communion about once a month. Other churches have it every two weeks. Of course I would skip some Sundays when there wasn’t communion. Has our communion become another Catholic ritual that is part of the Mass ?
While I had found that going to communion every week strengthened me spiritually for the next week, I am wondering if the frequency has made it lose some of its meaning ? You WA’s seem to be trying to do away with some of the Catholic traditions- how do you feel about it ?