As a blogger, I spend more time reading others posts than writing my own. This page contains links to recent posts from the blogs I follow.
[recreading items=15].
As a blogger, I spend more time reading others posts than writing my own. This page contains links to recent posts from the blogs I follow.
[recreading items=15].
Obie, you might as well add this Huffington Post article about the orthodox lutheran movement trying to take over the LCMS from within at the presidential election.
Schismatics at work everywhere.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/30/tea-party-insurgence-ripp_n_555840.html
So, you would apply that term to Goodsoil and LCNA, who for 20 years tried to “take over” the ELCA with what they wanted? Or is it only schismatic if the people are more conservative 😉
How were Goodsoil or LC/NA trying to “take over” the ELCA? Their goal was (and is) the inclusion of people who are excluded from full participation. It would make as much sense to say that African-Americans were trying to take over the Woolworth’s chain when they started sitting in.
Oh now I wouldn’t say the schismatics are trying to overtake the LCMS. More like the fine folk of the Missouri Synod are making their voices heard because they don’t like the direction Kieschnick is taking the LCMS. They want to keep the LCMS Lutheran so it doesn’t fall away into pop American Evangelicalism…
And yet Kieschnick got all “little tent” during the celebrations last fall at the Chapel of the Resurrection at Valparaiso University who now has two university pastors that are LCMS and one ELCA. He was presiding at the celebrations for some reason and moments before the worship service he asked Rev. Darlene Grega to not participate because of the LCMS’s rules about who they worship with. It was HER congregations.
Must control fist of death. Sigh.
Btw, there is a LCMS megachurch “thing” for lack of words in Eau Claire. Definitely seems more megachurch Evangelical than lutheran.
That evangelical megachurch “thing” is exactly what, according to the nomination numbers, a good deal of the LCMS is trying to keep from becoming more prevalent, to avoid an influx of the shallow, vapid, megachurch culture in the LCMS.
I see that the Crystal cathedral is in financial trouble and Schuller is getting old. It is beautiful BUT why spend all that money on something that may not be used in a couple years. Imagine the upkeep to all that glass. Somehow , God’s good green, brown and white earth makes a better cathedral to me. Maybe renting a football stadium or a large concert /performing arts hall makes more sense. I have been attending an old historic church that has trouble getting members. I have talked to enough people there to know that some of the problem is that some of the members “own ” the church and don’t want to share.
Ann- If what Goodsoil and Lutherans Concerned wanted was “Full Inclusion” of LGBT people into the church then we are still no where near that. What about allowing open gay and lesbian bishops, what about a statement that endorses GLBT marriage?
The issue is not sexuality, it just isn’t. The issue is scripture. Those opposed take a high view of scripture. A view that says MY feelings and MY experiences DO NOT have equal weight with scripture. The word God is what we mirror our life after, not changing feelings and culture. Therein lies the difference between the Pro and Anti ELCA folks.
@Stephen Johansson
By “high view” of Scripture, do you mean literal? It seems you have a simplistic understanding of a complicated issue.
FYI, the new ministry policies WILL allow LGBT bishops. And, the CWA09 resolutions included this provision: “that the ELCA commit itself to finding ways to allow congregations that choose to do so to recognize, support, and hold publicly accountable lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships.” While this may not be a full-throated endorsement of gay marriage, it certainly tilts in that direction.
I loved the one about the wind farm spill. Here in NE WI we have a continuing discussion going on about who gets to put up the wind mills. One of the biggest fears was that those that are close to the Horicon marsh would somehow knock down the migrating geese. We have seen the impressive wind farms in the Mojave desert and now there are a large number in the Fond du Lac area.
They didn’t have the technology for this back in the Old Testament.
Do you theologians ever discuss whether the burning bush or the pillar of fire had anything to do with the petroleum/natural gas rich middle east ? or is that too much trying to explain away the miracles ?
“You theologians”? You do not give yourself enough credit, Lilly. Seriously.
For me, it would smack of the sort of late 19th century / early 20th century liberal protestantism that gave rise to the “God of the gaps” thinking. I’m ok with the miraculous, personally.
Well, Tony, maybe one of the reasons I can’t go along with you people who take a view that the Bible is without error is because I think too much. I am always trying to figure out- how could God have done that naturally and have it interpreted by ancient man as miraculous ? I also like to watch the science channel with my husband and sometimes watch Nova. I like the Naked Archeologist too. On the other hand I believe strongly in the Holy Spirit starting with “the Spirit of God moved etc.” To me our God is a Trinity with the three persons manifested in a powerful Holy Spirit. Sometimes, I think that when one limits onesself to scripture as written in Old Testament times or 50 to 100 years after the death of Christ, one limits one’s concept of God. As I look at the pictures from the Hubble telescope, I just go WOW! And yes, God is still speaking.
Years ago when I was a girl and later when I was a young woman, I did take a literal view of the Bible. I think I know where you might be coming from because I was very judgemental towards anyone who didn’t believe the way I did.
@Lilly
“…you people who take a view that the Bible is without error…”
You misrepresent me. I do not hold that the Bible is inerrant. I hold that it is infallible. Very different thing.
And I’m judgmental? Ok. Last week, a bishop told a congregation that I was “sheepstealing” & “trolling,” and last night a bishops asst told a congregation council that having me come would be “just like inviting a Muslim.”
But I’m judgmental. Ahhhhh. I gotta get a current dictionary. But I digress.
So Lilly, if we believe that God is still speaking, and the canon is not closed, what criteria do we use to know that what we hear is, in fact, God?
Back when I was an active Charismatic, I read and heard some things on discernment. There are criteria for discerning the spirit to see if it is from God. One criteria that you would like is “is it in line with scripture ” another was to talk it over with others in your fellowship, I would have to look up the others but basically it was to decide if it was God or could it be the devil, the world, or your own thoughts and flesh. Basically, you don’t just jump in because you think God is telling you something. Luther was good for his time and we still trust him for basic Lutheran tradition. But in the here and now, it pays to take a little time and sleep on your ideas , talk them over, and if your project is based on love and caring for other people’s needs- God probably is still speaking.
It sounds like you have been demonized by the fearful ELCA. I have heard you speak and I thought you were pretty honest.
I do not mean “literal”, Obie. I’ve wrestled with this issue for a long time. In fact, I used to be on the other side, the Pro- LGBT ordination side that is. I read Mel White and other articles from Soulforce and other views supporting ordination and full inclusion. But, about a year ago I had to get real with myself. I prayed and I prayed. And, I realized something. I realized that the reason that I was supporting LGBT ordination was because of friends and family who were part of that community. I realized that I could not support my belief through scripture. Indeed scripture offers no support for the Pro side of this. I wasn’t happy and overjoyed to change my position, but I knew I had to. I knew that as someone submitted to the authority of Jesus Christ, I had to. That’s my journey on this. If it’s “simplistic” I really don’t care. Because I know that it is faithful to biblical witness and testimony.
@Stephen Johansson
I can relate Stephen. I got to sem in 1990, figuring that if some gay guy wanted to be a pastor, what was the problem. In my first class, the professor emphasized that “the words of Scripture have meanings” and we must honor those meanings. The funny thing is that the prof was Terry Fretheim.
An interesting thing happened a few months ago when I was talking to the then Assistant pastor. He had never heard about how to discern the spirits. When I explained it to him he said he had never heard that and that he just plunged right in without even trying to figure out if the “message” was from God. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have been put on the back burner in the Lutheran Church except for the minority who listened. Tongues seemed to be the issue. Someone in the LCMS wrote a book saying that these things were of the devil and those who read it believed it. When I arrived in Clintonville, I mentioned that I had been a Charismatic and was immediately told by a lady that it was of the devil. So I went into my “prayer closet”. Some of the Waupaca county churches that have gone with LCMC claim the Charismatic gifts. I am not sure that would work for everyone but we do all have gifts of the Holy Spirit and if we follow God we will find that He does speak in our hearts.
@Lilly
The gifts of the Spirit clearly have a place in the church. The problem is that Tongues is the only one some emphasize. That is a mistake. I do not want those who speak in tongues by the Spirit to stop; I just want them to read 1 Corinthians. 🙂
And you are right; we need to pay more attention to the gifts of the Spirit, not just the fruits.
@Tony Stoutenburg
Tony, I agree and I have read 1 Cor.12 and 13 many times . I settled into a quieter walk . What I am saying is that a lot of Lutherans (maybe not you or those of your generation ) haven’t had good teaching on the Holy Spirit. The assistant pastor I was talking about is a “born again” Christian who had become a pastor as a second or third career. He glorified Jesus every step of the way. However, because he was ELCA, he was told by the LCMC pastor that he could not serve two masters because he had an associate membership in an ELCA church he was working at part time and I expect that he did not want to resign from the ELCA. He had thought he would be alright because he was just working part time on an hourly contract and was actually retired. Well, that is the kind of leader we have here in Clintonville. Is that too strict or too narrow minded or too going by the BOOK of rules of the LCMC or just too foot in the mouth ? It was the last straw for me because the assistant pastor was a “friend ” who had listened through many of my family dilemas. Your pastor friend here did apologize to him but it was too late to save the situation. My problem with LCMC here is not so much the theology but a personality issue with the pastor. That can happen in any church.
It’s not only the five or six verses that seem on their face to speak against homosexuality that “have meaning,” folks…
@Tony Stoutenburg
I hope I have given you an idea for your Pentacost sermon. When I studied the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I quit volunteering for everything the church was doing and started doing the things I thought I might be more successful at. That has worked better for me. Sometimes the church just plain needs muscles or dishwashers and then we have to all pitch in. Church librarian was a good fit for me . I used to sew and quilting would be good if I didn’t have to stand all the time with my bad back. And don’t ask me to sing these days, I can and my cats enjoy it, but it is a gift my husband is better at in church.