We moved last week, just down the block, but packing, transporting, and unpacking a household is an onerous task regardless of the distance. Still walking around boxes and nursing a stiff old body that will turn social-security-eligible next week. In the middle of it all, I had a book signing on Saturday, and Sunday marked the third installment of a four part series I am teaching at my congregation about the canonization of the New Testament—the centuries long process of determining which writings would become the sacred books of Christianity. A story of conflict and controversy and erecting boundaries to define the outsider. I offer these personal notes as explanation for the dearth of posts on this blog recently. But today I’ll offer my thoughts on a subject that has been festering for awhile.
Pastor Cary and Pastor Jeff are commenters to this blog with a different point of view than my own. I’m decidedly pro-revised-ministry-policies, and they’re both opposed. Pastor Jeff suggests that his Arizona congregation has or will soon leave the ELCA and Pastor Carey is a leader of a SE Minnesota group called “Faithfulness Gathering” whose vision is To create a home for faithful Lutherans in southern Minnesota and northern Iowa. The clear implication is that those of us who support the ECLA policies aren’t numbered among the faithful.
Pastor Jeff has twice invited me, via a comment on my blog, to write a post about an ELCA synod that has significant financial difficulties. Pastor Cary writes that the ELCA is a “sinking ship” and the only question posed on his blog is whether to join CORE or LCMC. Why do these two and many others keep pointing to negative ELCA statistics and anecdotal evidence of pain in the parishes? That several hundred ELCA congregations have or will sever their ties with the ELCA is undisputed as is the knowledge that thousands of individuals will also move elsewhere. No doubt about it, these departures and the residual anguish in many congregations are immensely painful for the ELCA.
But why chirp about it?
Some would suggest that it is mean-spirited reveling in the struggles of the ELCA, pleasure in the pain of one’s opponents, but I’ll give them more credit than that. Instead, I think they seek to prove a point, and they cite the pain of the ELCA as proof—of what? That the decisions of CWA09 were wrong? To create a collective “buyer’s remorse” regarding the decisions of CWA09? There’s a certain “you were warned” tone to the comments. The admonition “if the ELCA adopts pro-gay ministry policies, then there will be mass defections” has come true. That’s why it’s also necessary to overstate and hype the defections. Why, some suggest that the ELCA itself is damaged beyond repair (a sentiment Pastor Cary may share). But fear not, Lutheran CORE will leap into the breach with their proposal for a “reconfiguration of North American Lutheranism.” Drum roll, please.
If maintaining unity in the ELCA is a greater priority than enacting justice, then I see their point. Steady as she goes. Don’t make waves. Avoid controversy. Refrain from challenging the folks in the pews with enlightened notions of human sexuality; after all, the gays left their church a long time ago. Don’t talk about sex at all.
Change can be painful. Don’t free the slaves, Mr. Lincoln, or we’ll secede from the union. And when we do, it’s really you who leave us. Must our kids remind us that doing the right thing is not always popular? So, the next time someone flaunts the latest congregation to vote itself out of the ELCA, I ask what does that prove other than that the ELCA was willing to risk, to take a stand, to do the right thing despite the self-fulfilling threats of the secessionists?
BTW, I’ll ask my canonization class on Sunday if we’re unbiblical.
“If maintaining unity in the ELCA is a greater priority than enacting justice, then I see their point. Steady as she goes. Don’t make waves. Avoid controversy. Refrain from challenging the folks in the pews with enlightened notions of human sexuality; after all, the gays left their church a long time ago. Don’t talk about sex at all.”
By my own experience in the United Methodist Church, I feel that unity ought to be paramount. I’m not sure that allowing openly gay clergy to be pastors is an issue of “justice” on par with the decisions Lincoln faced (aside from the fact that it is naive to say that Lincoln’s primary motivation was the free the slaves…it wasn’t. He was chiefly concerned with unity).
I’m not sure what an “enlightened” view of sexuality is; I’d venture to guess that such a view bears close resemblence to the rapid redefinition of human sexual mores that we’ve seen over the last 50 or 60 years. I would only hope that we would be willing to hear the people in the pews – ours, and others – and see if there is not a word of the Lord there. It is supreme arrogance to assume that “they” are desperate for the enlightened ideas of “us”. We ought to be willing to be challenged by traditional notions of sexuality.
That said, those on the conservative side should also be pushed; we cannot stand firm on homosexuality and the traditional family unless we take equally harsh stances against easy divorce and sexual promiscuity.
At any rate, Jesus did pray that we would be one. I hope his prayer comes true at some point. At the rate that Protestants are fracturing and/or leaving the church altogether, I fear we may become by a simple act of disappearing until there are no mainline churches.
Well, first, the notion of Unity uber alles is one that has been around in the ELCA for a long time. (It may even be the proximate cause of the ELCA.) It was certainly the theme that was repeated over and over in 1997 & 1999 to give us the Reformed and ECUSA agreements. And it is one the bishop in NW Wisc (at least) is drumming into the heads of congregations who are talking about whether or not to vote to leave.
As for your question, “Why do these two and many others keep pointing to negative ELCA statistics and anecdotal evidence of pain in the parishes?” I cannot speak for them, but is it not true that “anecdotal evidence of pain” is all that the “progressive” side had to push the CWA09 change through? Seems to me that if that is all there is on the traditionalist side now, they learned it from you. 🙂
And yet you also seem dismissive of the very real pain that some are now feeling. (I think this is the first time you have acknowledged it – maybe I’m wrong – and even now you minimize it.) I know that some of the traditionalists have been guilty of that in the past regarding the experience of Gay folks (including probably me), but that is not an excuse.
As for chirping, the LCMC website has been criticized on this forum for listing the number of congregations that are leaving. This has been partly, as I have said, that we are a little giddy about it, but also that it is an assurance to those who are interested in leaving to know that they are not alone, and if they take the step, they are not stepping out into the ether.
Finally, from where I sit there has been more than enough chirping on *both sides* to go around. To wit, how many times have you written something like you wrote on 4/25/10, Obie:
“For comparison purposes, the website of Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC) reports 185 new congregations since CWA09…Again, remember that the ELCA counts over 10,000 congregations on its rolls.”
Sounds like chirping to me. But I understand that you are merely citing Jesus parable (Luke 15:8-9) of the Woman who had ten coins and lost one. She sat back, poured a glass of chardonnay and said, “What the hey, I still have 9!”
The pain in Hayward, where Grace Lutheran split off from the local ELCA franchise 6 1/2 years ago (over similar issues) is still very real, though finally subsiding. People who have been friends for years will now at least acknowledge each other. It is starting to get better, but as in marriage, where the term “amicable divorce” is usually an oxymoron, some people in the congregations of the ELCA which are divided will feel abandoned no matter how the vote goes, or even if there isn’t one.
That’s not chirping. It is trying to speak the truth in love. (And probably failing from at least someone’s perspective.)
Blessings, TS
BTW, what is a “canonization class?”
When I downloaded the A-F Little Red Book for my Outlook program, I keep getting all these “Commemorations” on my calendar, but are you guys in Northfield teaching people to make more saints? 😉
@Tony Stoutenburg
Yes, we’re little Rome.
Actually, it is a class on the historical process of developing the New Testament canon.
@Tony Stoutenburg
I think it’s pretty callous to say that the pain that LGBT people and their families felt/feel about their exclusion from the ELCA is “anecdotal.” It’s anything but – in fact, it’s right there in your face and quite well documented, if you would choose to look for it.
@Obie: I see that in para 1 now. Sorry.
@Ann
Not callous; Webster.
From M-W.com: anecdote – a usually short narrative of an interesting, … or biographical incident.
The well documented narratives of pain that are felt by folks about their exclusion is, by definition, anecdotal. It is a descriptive noun, not a value judgment.
And the pain that the decisions are causing in congregations is also well documented and in your face, if you care. Ask Lilly or Kelly. Is Obie likewise callous for suggesting that their narratives (or those of Cary & Jeff) are “anecdotal?” I wouldn’t say so. My challenge to him on that is not the he calls it anecdotal, but that he seems to me to brush it aside as unimportant.
Blessings, TS
@Tony Stoutenburg
I am a historian by training, and so I could get into the debate in academic circles about the importance of narratives and personal testimony, etc, but I won’t do that here. Suffice it to say, in my world, saying something is “anecdotal” is casting a value judgment on its worth, so thank you for clarifying.
I still don’t understand why the discussion on this issue is always so circular in nature. Yes, I get that opponents of the CWA decisions are upset and feel pain. However, what I was talking about was NOT the opponents of the CWA decision and their pain. Gasp, you mean not everything is about the opponents of the CWA decision? I mean, ultimately, that is what I see as the point of Obie’s post – yes, people are troubled by the decisions, but maybe other things are more important than some folks having to get used to difficult changes in what kinds of people are allowed to serve as pastors in the ELCA.
I think there is also a fair amount of devaluing and undermining what LGBT people could (and do) bring to the life of this church in the focus on how awful it is that people are leaving. Get ready for an actual anecdote here – I know more LGBT people and their family members than I can count on all my 10 fingers and 10 toes who have left the ELCA over the years feeling rejected – not only by the church but by God. And I am not gay and don’t really know a ton of gay people. I think their pain is important. I think we should be upset that they left the ELCA and the church altogether. I think we need to discuss this as much and as often as we do the pain of people who oppose the sexuality decisions. And it deserves to be discussed and acknowledged on its own terms, without “well I feel bad, too” being the only response. The ELCA, LCMC, CORE, NALC, LCMS – name your acronym – every one of them has been responsible for making LGBT people feel like they are less than, and that God’s promises are not for them. Every one of them has been responsible for turning LGBT people away from God, forever. Why isn’t anyone discussing that?
@Ann
Amen, Ann.
The numbers who stay or leave cannot and should not be a referendum on whether CWA09 decisions were right or not, and that’s what my post attempted to say. You have appropriately expressed the rightness of the decision as correcting the wrongness of excluding folks based on their status, with the response of those excluded often being more guilt and shame and self-loathing. “Not only does society reject me for who I am, but God does too.” That the church has historically been a significant part of the problem only makes CWA09 more compelling. And that’s why I attempted to state that CWA09 was necessary and appropriate despite the potential fracture of church unity. And, I think you’re right to suggest that the CORE types persist in the traditional message of condemnation and judgment rather than promise and hope.
“Hate the sin and love the sinner”–how’s that working out for you? Are the children of God who happen to be gay receiving nurture at your church?
No, Tony, it’s not true. This has been a meme of “traditionalist” rhetoric for some time now, and its not true. Sure, there are some who do dwell on such matters. And maybe it’s the reason that some people have adopted support for changes in ministry policies. But it certainly isn’t all that could be or was offered toward changing the ELCA’s policies.
I have to wonder about this meme. Is it a result of people not really listening to the “other side”? Are arguments that are disagreed with being disregarded as if there were never made in the first place? Is it a preconceived lens that ends up discarding anything that doesn’t fit into that frame so that one only hears the stereotype one expected? Is it a rhetorical ploy to undermine any arguments that are made by suggesting they don’t exist? Something else? I’m not sure. But it is disturbing and unfortunate that arguments about grace, theology, and Scripture, and even from Scripture, are so often not even acknowledged by “traditionalists”, even if one disagrees.
Obie, you said above:
“The numbers who stay or leave cannot and should not be a referendum on whether CWA09 decisions were right or not, and that’s what my post attempted to say.”
I think it is important for all of us to realize that we may have had very different experiences at our own churches and the numbers do not tell the whole story.
For instance, at my church the pastor announced in December at a regularly scheduled congregational meeting that she could no longer stay with the ELCA. She had already begun convincing the council members to see it her way. NO (and I mean none!!!) discussion was allowed and those of us who insisted on open dialog received pastoral admonishments. A CORE representative by the name of Rebecca Heber was allowed to preach in January and conduct a forum after the service. When someone questioned her about CORE’s involvement with Exodus International, the pastor ended the forum.
The first vote to leave the ELCA received its 2/3 majority by 2 votes…with no idea of where they will actually go. The 1/3 of us who wanted more dialog or didn’t want to leave the ELCA were told in no uncertain terms to move on…we could be replaced by others who felt like they did.
Where was the Christian love, the quest for peace, and respect for all? Certainly not at that church. My husband and I have found a wonderful home at an Episcopal church that promotes love, peace, and respect as their most important ways of treating each other.
Sometimes it’s not what happened at CWA09 but the way we treat each other. So we are no longer counted among the numbers of ELCA Lutherans, but it’s not because we have issues with what happened at CWA09….which supports Obie’s statement above.
By the way, I am still on the email list for Rebecca Heber and the slanted information she sends out is shameful. I’m sure what is presented on the CORE website is more thoughtful but her personal vibe is ugly and hateful. I admire people who have passion about what they believe in (I don’t have to necessarily agree with it) but to do it at the expense of others is inexcusable.
I pray that we will all remember that the way we treat each other is vitally important…love one another.
@Mona
I recognize Heber’s name and think I am in the same state as you and know the church to which you belonged. You were treated horribly, and the people who “won” the vote don’t seem to understand that no one wins in situations like yours. My congregation prayed for your former church for many a Sunday.
I’m glad you found someplace to worship, but, as I said above, I think the ELCA is diminished when anyone has to leave the denomination. (Especially since there are so few of us where we live in the first place!) You’re in my prayers.
Obie,
Thanks for starting this conversation. Since I was one of the pastors you mentioned, I would live to make a few points here to further the conversation.
1) I have faithfully served the ELCA for 22 years and before that the LCA in youth ministry. I went to an ELCA college. To suggest ANY OF US who are leaving, or have left, or are thinking about it are doing this to “shove it in your face” or “prove there is pain” or whatever your sad little implication was, is beneath you, and borders on shredding the eighth commandment. I will commend you for noting you don’t believe that is why we did it, but it was bit of a backhand slap, kind of like “I don’t think they mean it, but why don’t I bring it up anyway”.
2) The reason I asked you to comment on that specific synod assembly is that you post a lot of links here to how well things are going-in your mind, in the ELCA….my experience is different than yours. Five of the top 20 churches in terms of worship attendance have left or are leaving… that is about 27,000 ELCA members , the one I serve being one of them. In the synod I am a part of , 20,000 members alone have left -this is in churches we know have voted to leave, not counting those who have walked. So yes, it is painful. It is painful for me to see this happen to the ELCA. You may say why do I care when I am leaving> I have never been divorced, and never plan to, but I can guess divorced spouses still care about each other, and still feel pain and remorse . This is no different. And truth be told , everyone is running around quoting the 2 percent or less of churches leaving…I have stated ever since MN last August the true cost won’t be known until later this year and next, when parish rolls get counted, and those who just walked or went to other churches are tallied up . I is not the larger churches who will make the most impact, it is the countless ones in conflict, losing membership, and divided over this.
3). I fully accept what happened in MN. I was there. I don’t have buyers remorse. It is over, finished, and for me, the telling tale was the six page Swartling letter saying you can disagree, but don’t do it publicly, and don’t affiliate with anyone, even though it has happened for 22 years already. To the winners go the spoils. Congrats. But don’t be saying there is room for those who disagree and then issue legal decrees that say otherwise.
4) I think the way the church I serve has modeled our exit has been gracious. We have spoken well of the ELCA and our bishop, while stating our disagreement. We continue to fund certain Latino ELCA ministries, including the largest Latino ELCA church we started. We allowed no clapping or cheering after our vote and closed in prayer. We don’t speak ill of anyone. We have gays in our church, who have remained there.
I hope that helps a bit. Your comments about justice over unity are balderdash. If the votes were about excluding gays or anyone from our churches, then you would have a point. This was about the standards for the ministerium and the revision of marriage. In case ;you are interested, I am fine with civil unions for same sex partners. That to me is Luther’s kingdom of the world….and all Americans deserve equal rights. But being a pastor is not a right-it comes with all sorts of conditions and qualifications. And all Americans are entitled to equality under the law, and all churches are entitled to express their beliefs about marriage and what it means. Jesus himself prayed for unity. So yes, in some cases justice trumps unity, but this is isn’t 1964, and most African Americans would appalled at your analogy.
Hope that clarifies things a bit.
Please read this–all of it. Maybe it will help you understand what some people who leave the ELCA think. When all is said and done, God’s church is not a social club. We must live by his rules.
http://www.tcwordalone.org/papers/glesne01_2009.shtml
@Tony Stoutenburg
As for the chirping, let me give you a little of my perspective (what, you didn’t think I wouldn’t? 😉 )on how what may seem like reason to rejoice on one side comes across as puppy stomping on the other.
I can see how a list of growing congregations is definitely something to celebrate. But that same list is used as a cudgel in my congregation. It is used to embolden then to become all the more intolerant and actually celebrate the perceived implosion of the ELCA. Techincally we are still an ELCA congregation, but no ELCA literature is allowed except for a few token things in hard to find places. In its stead there are reams of rantings from Skogen’s inflammatory website “Exposing the ELCA.” We kill babies, we worship a goddess and not God, we cut Genesis out of the bible, the ELCA supports terrorists because it rejects Israel, etc.
Our pastor withdrew his rostering from the ELCA yet hasn’t bothered to officially let the congregation know, because if you haven’t pledged an oath of fealty to his cause, you aren’t worth the time of day. Members who want to remain within the ELCA construct have had to seek pastoral care ELSEWHERE to bury their family members because they have been literally ignored by their “pastor” when they need it most. The constitutional rules only apply when they suit the leadership, and votes in accordance to the constitution (ie, the supermajority) have been replaced by nothing more than the mob rule. There are rumors (yeah, I know, but hear me out) of “lawyering up” to make sure all of the assets remain in the hands of the majority and others (ie, the ELCA) are left with nothing. That sure sounds like punishment and retribution to me.
And for those like me who have never been about the building, I have got to ask: Where is Christ in all of this?
I know that this is not how the LCMC operates elsewhere. I am quite confident that your congregation is a healthy one that nurtures all, where those with dying parents are cared for spiritually, where all are welcome and greeted teh same, and there isn’t a continual counting of coup. And if I am ever vacationing in your neck of the woods (What’s there not to love about northern lakes, a canoe, and some quality family near Lake Superior??) I wouldn’t have any hesitation worshiping with your congregation. But as for your colleagues to the south of you, they are not an example of a healthy or nurturing ministry, and hopefully they will never be an example of the LCMC as a whole.
It is truly sad that it has come to this. It is not the church I joined when I was pregnant with my first daughter. Christ seems sadly missing. In his stead there are official pledges of fidelity to clergy (apparently we’re voting on that this weekend. I think I’ll plant flowers and glorify God that way in my garden during the vote as I have never been a fan of golden calves)and constant crowing with printed lists and inflammatory literature that ELCA is splintering.
If I have to chose that type of congregation or meeting with a few dozen people gathered to worship in a middle school gynmasium, I’ll pick the gym any day of the week.
@ Mark Christianson. Thank you for being one of the few to actually identify yourself. It helps to know who one is actually discussing with.
I responded to the post you link to, so I will not repeat the merits or arguments I have with that argument here. I am aware of the arguments, but they are incomplete and inadequate, IMO, to make the changes that have been made. That is not a claim to righteousness (Is 64:6 applies to me); but it seems to me that is the claim that is being made by the progressive side.
@Ann, I do not know where you got your training, and I am out of academia for several years now, so perhaps I am out of touch. When I was trained as an historian, we learned that words had meanings, and an anecdote was a narrative, as defined. If you and Obie use it as term of disparagement, so be it. That was not my intent.
@ Mona: I make no excuses for anyone. You were treated in an evil manner. That saddens me. I was invited to another area church in a small town to discuss LCMC last week. I closed by enjoining them all that, if a vote was taken, and someone felt like they had lost and that they could not worship together anymore, that they are forbidden by Christ’s command to love one another to treat each other as anathema. I am heart sick of tales – and they are told by folks on both sides of this issue – of being told, in essence, “In the name of Christ, don’t let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out.” No matter who behaves in such a way it is evil.
Blessings, TS
@Jeff
Before you dismiss Obie’s post as “balderdash,” I would encourage you to think about what LGBT people might think about your church in the wake of your vote. Most likely, they don’t know about the communications you’ve sent to your members – most of them aren’t in the church anymore. They also probably don’t know about the tone you set at the meetings on the issue. All they know is that your church chose to leave a denomination that was preparing to roster gay pastors in monogamous same sex relationships. What do you think they will think of your church as a result of those actions? Do you think this vote helps you to reach out to LGBT people, or would it be more likely to turn people away? Would most LGBT people consider your church a welcoming environment, or you a pastor that they could trust? I’m going to say no. What are you doing to counteract that?
These are important questions. And your constant desire to pit LGBT people vs. people of color is a dog that won’t hunt. They are not mutually exclusive categories.
@Tony Stoutenburg
I’m glad you had a different experience in history. It’s too bad you weren’t in the room for my M.A. thesis defense, where I had to defend using interviews (which were, according to some of my committee, “anecdotal” by nature and not really proof of anything). There is a pretty broad literature in history on the validity (or lack thereof) of personal testimony, oral history interviews, etc.
@Ann
That’s weird. When I was in college (Augustana – Il 81, Poli Sci/History) the advent of those newfangled portable audio cassette recorders meant that oral history was the hot new thing. Spent more than a few hours rewinding cassettes in the history dept so they would not fuzz over.
Besides, has the movement for personal testimony of everyday people really died out in history? If so, all you are left with is the Great Man Theory of History. That is a lot, but it is not enough.
Sorry I wasn’t there. I’d have given them the evil eye.
@Kelly
I am truly sorry for that experience. And yes, you are welcome at GLC. And if you and your “side” (hate to think of it that way, but don’t know what language to use) end up in the school gym, let me know. We have prayed here for both New Hope & Calvary, both in Minong, and would do so for both in your community as well.
Blessings TS
Ann, maybe you can ask our members what they think. Those who are gay, and those who are straight. They find us welcoming, inviting, and do trust the pastoral leadership. As we continue to grow at a rate of about 5% a year, it seems many others do as well.
As for a constant desire about pitting minorities against each other, I suggest you read some studies from Pew Forum, Annenberg, and others. I am simply reporting facts.
@Jeff
I didn’t ask your members, and actually was specifically not talking about people who are already members of your church. I asked you because I am genuinely interested in your thoughts about this.
Ann,
You already answered for me. You asked me a question about my ministry, which you have no knowledge or history in terms of personal interaction, then you answered it yourself by saying “no”. You prejudged me, something I find a lot of folks doing on both sides of this issue.
Across 22 years of parish ministry, I have treated everyone with compassion, kindness, and met them where they are at in the journey of life. I said ask our members, because I think you would get a completely different picture.
You see, you assumed because I opposed the CWA actions I would not have compassion for anyone who is not straight, nor welcome them to worship. Well, newsflash, they are there, they invite their friends, and our church continues to grow. We don’t spend time arguing endlessly about social issues. We preach the Gospel, we baptize in the name of the Triune, we discuss controversial issues in adult forums, and we reach out to the least, last , and lost, just like most churches. We have sponsored and will continue to sponsor the largest ELCA Latino church and ministry in the nation, as well as a feeding center and church in South Africa we built from the ground up. We are beginning a partnership with the Navajo nation.
And along the way, we confess our sins every week, see through a mirror dimly, and confess we don’t have all the answers, but do stand by what church history, the creeds, confessions, and scripture teaches us. And, we recognize others many interpret that differently, and while we can’t agree with them, we will be in conversation with them.
Hope that that helps. I don’t judge your faith or ministry, so please don’t answer your own questions when you ask them of others.
Wow, what a bunch of comments on this blog. I needed a break and needed to get out of Clintonville briefly, so we went camping and visiting relatives. It was a nice break and my husband caught some brown trout in Wisconsin’s Devils Lake. We visited the nursing home at Soldiers Grove where my English Methodist brother in law was among the residents being entertained by a trio of Norwegians from Westby.
They even played an Irish jig.
Well now, is that Kosher ? I don’t know, but it was fun and over in that country where a lot of Norwegian Lutherans married Irish Catholics, they seem to be accepting it.
It may well be that the ethnic Lutherans of Norwegian, Swedish, German, Finnish etc. background are still grinding their axes about old ways of doing things and the gay issue is the latest “difference” to fight about. I am not going to try to second guess God when it comes to this issue. After CORE has their August convention, I hope that people will figure out where they are going and start doing the work of the church again.
@Jeff
In my city, there is a church (not an ELCA church) that split from one of the oldest and longest-established churches in town over the sexuality issue. The fight was in the papers, it was on the news, people talked about it. LGBT people know the church and know it to be somewhere where they aren’t welcome. In the city I lived in previously, which has about 20 ELCA churches, one of the 20 is on its way out of the ELCA. Same deal – in the news, in the papers, people are talking. LGBT people know the church and know it to be somewhere they aren’t welcome. They read the newspapers, they hear about what’s going on in our denomination. I can’t question your assertion that you’ve managed to avoid that kind of reputation in the LGBT community, and if you have, good for you. You are one of a tiny minority of churches that have split from their denomination over the sexuality issue that has, though.
And incidentally, Jeff – I don’t think you really answered my questions, which were not actually about your ministry or your ability to empathize with people at all. I am asking how you think people perceive your church, and whether you think you are now in a better or worse position to reach out to LGBT people who feel that Christians reject them.
Ann,
I think you and I agree. In most of the splits, departures, schisms, or whatever you want to call it, it does tend to get nasty on both sides, and then the churches are perceived (fairly or unfairly), as either welcoming or unwelcoming.
I don’t put a lot of stock in statements that appear on websites that a particular church is a “welcoming church” to XYZ in the community. As the church , we are ALWAYS supposed to welcome all. We are all sinners.
Sadly, this issue moved from the ministerium to people perceiving it is about how a church welcomes people. We have never had that issue (I am sure we have had people leave us because we are too big, too busy, etc) in terms of just accepting people for who they are .
I am not saying we are doing or have done things perfectly. But our task force and pastors made a commitment at the beginning of this whole process to uphold the eighth commandment, speak well of all, and be gracious.
I am sure there are those on both sides of this issue who have handled it well, some not so well. My point was that it can be done in a way that encourages conversation, like we have had here.
I commend Obie for that.
@Kim Smith
Since this is a Word Alone statement, to me that means “Law first, Gospel, maybe later, if you think like we do”. To me the church is foremost a social club and as such can pick and choose or shun its members. This is not a Lutheran only sort of attitude. If you are new, if you are different, if you aren’t dressed the way they think you should, you better keep your mouth shut for the first year or so and just help with everything they don’t want to do anymore or you won’t be accepted. When I first joined the Clintonville church 12 years ago, I was almost immediately asked to be on the council from the Evangelism Committee. I didn’t know anything about Evangelism and I certainly did not know the pecking order yet. I didn’t go on the coucil but I did fill out a term on the Evangelism Committee. It was a learning experience , mostly learning who ran the church.
Reading the blog comments on this site has made me think that this is a family feud type of thing. The ELCA probably did need to be restuctured but I don’t see the break off group yet that I can agree with.
@Kelly
I am still waiting to hear, and I fear I will wait in vain for a long while yet, of a local church that says, “we disagree on this issue; our disagreement is foundational to our theology but is not community destroying.”
Suppose such a church was 50/50. Not enough to leave the ELCA, but still significantly divided. The church would agree that they would birth a new congregation which could join LCMC or NALC or some such. The parent congregation would then gift control of 1/2 the assets – including the building – to the new congregation. Together they could share the building and establish a schedule that would work for both, each calling a separate pastor. In Seaview Washington there is such an arrangement between the LCMS, the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians.
Every time I have suggested this to Lutherans over the last 5 years, people have looked at me like I just said something in Farsi and no one understood me.
Without pointing to any one situation or making any accusations, I just wish that the love Christ calls on us to have for each other would trump our love of victory and buildings.
@Kelly
I long in vain to hear of a congregation that says, “our differences are foundational to our theology but are not community destroying.”
Suppose that such a congregation was divided 50/50. Significant division, but not enough to leave the ELCA. They would birth a new LCMC or NALC congregation, transfer all members who wanted to go and share ownership of all the assets of the old congregation. Together they would work out a schedule that worked for both congregations in the one building, each calling a pastor. There is just such an arrangement in Seaview WA between the LCMS, PCUSA and TEC congregations!
I am accusing everyone and no one in particular with this remark: I long to hear of a conflict in a congregation where the Love Christ tells us to have for one another would trump our love of victory and property.
Moving is hard work especially if you aren’t used to moving boxes. I hope the new place works out and you have a nice quiet study to use to write books.
@Tony Stoutenburg
It looks like we are heading toward a formal separation of our congregation. The bishop has recommended a task force with equal representation be formed to hammer out the details. At this point, a lot of us–myself included–just want closure and a place to worship. For those of us wanting to worship as an ELCA community, it will probably be with a synodically authorized worship center so that we may rebuild our community instead of scattering to the four winds while the task force finalizes the process.
That is if the leadership of the local LCMC is willing to meet at the table and work it out like grown ups instead of continuing to adhere to the mob rule. At this point, I would be happy to worship in a gymnasium or around a campfire just as long as we work at being Christcentric.
@Kelly
Good luck with the move. Here the SAC or SAWC hasn’t been able to get things going very well but they haven’t advertised to others what they were trying to do or to hold together. They have been meeting at 8 on Sunday mornings for worship but the attendance varies from 14 to 20 in the old Shopper’s Guide building that won’t hold many more than that. They are meeting with the Assoc. Bishop this next week to try to decide what to do. I hope you have enough like minded people who are willing to work on a new or renewed ELCA church in Tomah. I am still interested in the ELCA group but people who left the LCMC church have gone in various directions. I am interested in the church at Marion that is going to stay ELCA since it is only 7 miles but they still have the Word Alone logo on their website.
That church has split recently with the vote to stay. 5 council members left right away. But those who leave that church have LCMC churches on both sides of them and a pair of churches nearby that have a CORE member as pastor. I am not transferring yet until I see how some things play out.
The LCMC split off group at New London are meeting in the beautiful chapel at St.Josephs residence, the local nursing home, but a church ready for a congregation. So there are lots of options out there. My husband is happy in the Congregational church but I am finding some things I don’t like such as a couple of older women who won’t let anyone change anything. Since there are only about 20 to 30 people there on Sunday morning and many of them are in the choir, it is not a good sign. While I question some of the super liberal things the ELCA has done or thought about, I don’t want to go back to the kind of God I was scared of as a child and the hell fire and damnation kind of teaching. Peace be with you and may the Holy Spirit lead you as you work out these conflicts. Happy Pentecost !
@Tony Stoutenburg
Tony , I like your philosophy. When this thing first started here in Clintonville , I wrote a little poem (?).
How do you split a church ?
Do you split it down the center aisle?
Do you take half the pews and turn them around
and put another altar in the narthex ?
Do you build another church on the unpaved part of the parking lot ?
Well, that didn’t happen and the rest of the parking lot got paved and went LCMC.
The Congregational church minister was offering to let the ELCA group work out a worship space share with them. However, she was getting some negative feedback from a few of her members. Besides, it is getting hot and the little Shopper’s Guide building is air conditioned.
It sure would be nice if more churches did share space but it probably would have to be with another church , not a split church.
So much for Christianity.
@Kelly
I just came across one of the people on the other side of your church issue writing on a Facebook blog called “Proud to be Lutheran”. I don’t envy your situation there with Tommy Thompson’s brother as mayor of the town. I think Tommy is Catholic but I don’t know about his brother.
Anyway, the Tea Party people are pretty loud and I think some of that is going on in the Lutheran churches. The “Proud to be Lutheran” site is very biased and very extreme.
@Kelly
I just came across one of the people on the other side of your church issue writing on a Facebook blog called “Proud to be Lutheran”. I don’t envy your situation there with Tommy Thompson’s brother as mayor of the town. I think Tommy is Catholic but I don’t know about his brother.
Anyway, the Tea Party people are pretty loud and I think some of that is going on in the Lutheran churches. The “Proud to be Lutheran” site is very biased and very extreme. They are trying to expose all the failings of the ELCA
Kelly, I got that wrong. It is called “Proudly Christian”.
… unlike The Spirit of a Liberal. LOL
Lilly, do you have a link to that? You can send it to me off this list if you prefer. You know how to find me.
Tony, I also like your idea and had a similar thought. Before the pastor at my prior church announced she was leaving the ELCA, she spent a year trying to convince the congregation to sell the property and relocate. Of course, she ran into great obstacles as the congregation is made of of mostly older people who had been married there, had their children confirmed/married, and had family members’ funerals there. The building was important to them.
During our few moments of open dialog, there were quick to tell “us” (the 1/3 that didn’t want to leave the ELCA) that we were the ones dividing the church and it was going to come down to which group was the most viable. They were certain it wasn’t us and we were quickly shown to the door.
Many of us think the pastor still intends to push selling the church property…only this time she’ll have financial disaster on her side. She’ll convince them that selling the church is the only way to survive.
My thought was why not sell the property and divide the income accordingly…2/3 to the group wanting to go to CORE/NALC and 1/3 to the group wanting to remain in the ELCA to start a new church.
Of course, the comment was brought up that in no way did they want a penny of their money going to the evil heretic ELCA. So much for brotherly love…or fairness…or respect for others.
When you blend a social issue, church politics, and pure greed…you get a combustible mixture. Nothing surprises me any longer.
@Tony Stoutenburg
Tony I am getting old and short term memory sometimes evades me– It is “Exposing the ELCA”. “Proudly Christian” writes on the facebook discussion of it.
So isn’t every body biased. Yes, Spirit of a Liberal is but it does counter the extremes on the other side. Whatever happened to Lutheran moderates? Are they just drinking coffee and waiting for it all to pass ?
I see Kelly might have lost her battle.
Mona, that has been the history here. We are the one’s supposedly causing a rift in our church. We are the one’s that are causing problems. (Which I will never understand because we weren’t the side circulating petitions and getting the congregation frothed in to a frenzy. We never wanted to leave. They are the one’s doing the leaving It reminds me of the abusive spouse that blames the vicitim for all of the abuse she has received and not being accountable for one’s actions.
Why don’t We just give up, roll over and concede to the mob rule and be happy we weren’t run out with pitchforks and torches. Of course there shouldn’t be mediation or binding arbitration. The assets are Theirs even though we are still techicnally an ELCA congregation, because the mob rules.
So I don’t think of it as the ELCA losing the battle. I think that the majority of us are tired of the vitriol, the adoration of the proverbial golden calf and just want to worship in a safe environment where we are all welcome at God’s table and not looked upon in our own sanctuary with disdain and treated like second class citizens by our own council and clergy. You can only bang your head against a wall long enough before you realize there are better ways of going about things.
It goes away after while when people’s anger cools. Yesterday, I talked to a lady who hopes I come back. I told her we are still members and she said “good”. Her son was president of the congregation a few years ago and his wife is from one of the families in the church that like to “rule”. Kelly, just figure out where you were on the “pecking order” before this all happened. If you were respected, that will come back in time. In the meanwhile look for the best air conditioned place you can to worship. Make it “your” church. Give it 3 to 6 months and then see what is happening. If you have at least 40 families within 2 years, the ELCA will be happy to have you as a mission church. Maybe it is time for another Lutheran Church in Tomah. I don’t remember how far away any of the other ELCA churches are but there you will have to find your place too. God loves you. We are in a culture war in this country with the remnants of the Reagan era trying to stay in charge. A lot of Reagan youth are now middle aged and some of them might be our pastors.
@Lilly
“Exposing” is not a site I go to much. First, I am out of there. But secondly, Even where they are right, they oft manage to say it wrong. I have been a thorn in the side of folks like that for 10 years in the N A Lutheran reform movement because I believe that tone matters. Not just as a matter of making ourselves more appealing, but because of the 8th Commandment and Brother Martin’s exhortation to put the best possible construction on my brother or sister’s actions.
And I know I do not succeed at that myself …
Blessings
TS
I think they are twisting a lot of things and sensationalizing others like the “purple church” which looks like it might not be true.
I only found it because I typed in “ELCA” on Facebook. You have a couple years experiece leading a LCMC church and are more knowledgeable about the things that have to be done to be a semi-independent church. There are strengths and weaknesses both ways as I see it. God Bless.
@Tony Stoutenburg
@Kelly
How are you doing Kelly ? I have talked with some of the other “dissidents” here and the anger is ebbing as people figure out how to cope with the situation. There are a few people who need to have a good discussion with the pastor and do some forgiving but that is up to them. The pastor needs to do some forgiving too but I think he is waiting to be asked. I did go in a while ago and told him what was bugging me and he didn’t even remember saying it and said “I’m sorry”. I apologized for some nasty emails I sent him and he accepted the apology. That does not mean I am jumping back into the LCMC church full time or any thing. I am still going to play the “field” with the churches and see what appeals to us. One does get more flies with honey than with vinegar but it doesn’t mean you have to agree with them.
I heard some good news this morning. Last night the Faith Lutheran Church SAWC met with the Assoc. bishop and have decided to move forward with forming a new ELCA church. They will be meeting at the Bible Camp. The area where the Bible Camp is located is a lake area that is rapidly growing and changing from cottages to year round homes. It is halfway between Clintonville and Shawano.
Today we celebrate our 48th wedding anniversary. It is a long time to be married to one man but we have made it. We have had our struggles, mostly about money. My husband had an accident 30 years ago and was hospitalized for a month. He had to take a year off from work. At that time I decided that no matter what- he needed me. I haven’t been sorry. We are there for each other in our older age. To all of you out there who are struggling with your marriages, give each other a little space, and don’t try to control everything the other does. Look for the things you can enjoy together and make time to do some of them. Life is too short and there are too many heartaches to deal with , without making more than you have to.