In a near sob, radio reporter Herb Morrison spoke these memorable words as the Hindenburg Zeppelin burst into flames and crashed, killing 36 helpless passengers in May of 1937. Somehow, the words seem appropriate today as we witness one teen suicide after another associated with anti-gay bullying. On an even greater scale, the suicides are merely the most extreme consequences of gay angst over self-identity and self-worth, borne of a bullying culture … “an oppressive and unjust reality in which every LGBT person is always and everywhere at risk of becoming the target of violence solely because of sexual orientation or gender identity.”
A recurring theme of recent posts here is the question whether individual Christians, congregations and denominations are “part of the solution or part of the problem.” This question, in turn, was triggered by the challenge of former ELCA presiding Bishop, Herb Chilstrom.
What will you say to your sons and daughters, sisters and brothers and others in your churches when they tell you they are homosexual?
Although this blog is regularly visited by persons with distinctly differing viewpoints and opinions, few from the conservative side have offered even a meager answer to these questions. Pastor Tony from Wisconsin, a frequent commenter and an unofficial spokesperson for Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC), tepidly offered the letter of a Pastor Sorum that has received quite a bit of blogosphere attention, mostly for its harsh judgments of the ELCA and ELCA clergy, but which also offered the following answer to Bishop Chilstrom’s question.
It may also be true that, in our present fallen condition, they experience sexual desire primarily toward those of the same sex and that this is not something they have chosen. But these feelings do not constitute an identity, to which they must conform. Instead, Jesus gives them their true identity as children of his Father and shows them the way of life in his Word. Perhaps that way will include sufficient healing for marriage to be possible. But if they must go the single way, then Jesus will be enough and more than enough for them and will fill their lives with love and every good gift. Sex, after all, is not the end-all and be-all of life.
This answer seemingly suggests the following points: a) being gay is not an issue of identity, b) proper exposure to the “Word” may result in changing the gayness (pray the gay away), but if not, c) gays must remain single and abstinent, and d) sexual intimacy is not an integral component of human love, anyway.
Ann, a regular commenter here, responded forcefully to Pastor Tony’s endorsement of this answer to the Chilstrom question. Ann said,
But we are talking about young people who are in such despair that they choose to take their own lives, or to harm themselves in other ways. Tony’s response is not one that helps the vast majority of LGBT youth, and that’s inexcusable to me. They deal with enough trouble without their churches adding to the problems they face.
For a lot of LGBT folks, the church is the single institution that condemns them the most, and destroys their self-worth the most. That makes me sad and angry because it doesn’t have to be that way. There are young gay and lesbian kids at my church who learn that they are God’s children and God loves them. What a gift that is.
Today, I came across a blog previously unknown to me, and I don’t know the background of the blogger, Cody J Sanders, but several comments echo Ann’s response. The post is entitled, “Why anti-gay bullying is a theological issue.” Here are several quotes from the post, which claims that many Christians, many congregations, and many denominations are, indeed, part of the problem—and not just the Westboro Baptist lunatics:
These suicides are not acts of “escape” or a “cop-out” from facing life. When LGBT people resort to suicide, they are responding to far more than the pain of a few individual insults or humiliating occurrences. When LGBT people complete suicide it is an extreme act of resistance to an oppressive and unjust reality in which every LGBT person is always and everywhere at risk of becoming the target of violence solely because of sexual orientation or gender identity. They are acts of resistance to a perceived reality in which a lifetime of violence and abuse seems utterly unavoidable.
While a majority of LGBT people may avoid ever becoming the victim of a violence, none will be able to avoid the psychic terror that is visited upon LGBT people with each reminder that this world is one in which people are maimed and killed because of their sexual and gender identities. It is this psychic terror that makes life so difficult for many LGBT people. It is this psychic terror that does the heavy lifting of instrumental, systematic violence. It intends to silence and to destroy from within.
Anti-gay bullying is a theological issue because it has a theological base. I find it difficult to believe that even those among us with a vibrant imagination can muster the creative energy to picture a reality in which anti-gay violence and bullying exist without the anti-gay religious messages that support them.
These messages come in many forms, degrees of virulence, and volumes of expression. The most insidious forms, however, are not those from groups like Westboro Baptist Church. Most people quickly dismiss this fanaticism as the red-faced ranting of a fringe religious leader and his small band of followers.
More difficult to address are the myriad ways in which everyday churches that do a lot of good in the world also perpetuate theologies that undergird and legitimate instrumental violence. The simplistic, black and white lines that are drawn between conceptions of good and evil make it all-too-easy to apply these dualisms to groups of people. When theologies leave no room for ambiguity, mystery and uncertainty, it becomes very easy to identify an “us” (good, heterosexual) versus a “them” (evil, gay).
If anti-gay bullying has, at any level, an embodied undercurrent of tacit theological legitimation, then we simply cannot circumvent our responsibility to provide a clear, decisive, theological response. Aside from its theological base, anti-gay bullying is a theological issue because it calls for acts of solidarity on behalf of the vulnerable and justice on behalf of the oppressed.
To those readers out there who generally disagree with this blog, I urge you to let down your defenses for just a moment and to stop arguing about who is right and who is wrong; about whether the church is following the confessions of the 16th century; about whether this Biblical interpretation is more accurate then that one; about whether you’re allowing reason, science and human experience to intrude into your sola scriptura; and ask yourself—quietly, studiously, prayerfully—and honestly–are you part of the solution or part of the problem?
Oh, the humanity!
UPDATE
Executive Director of the Religious Institute (a multifaith organization dedicated to sexual health and justice), Deborah Haffner, offers an op-ed piece in today’s Washington Post that resonates with the themes of this article. Thus, this post is updated to include several quotes from the Haffner piece with a link to the whole. In the first paragraph below, Haffner identifies the problem, and in the second, she raises similar challenging questions to those we have raised here:
All of us have teens and young adults who are gay or lesbian in our congregations, many who are suffering in silence and are at risk. A study done by my colleagues at the Christian Community, found that 14% of teens in religious communities identify as something other than heterosexual. Almost nine in ten of them have not been open about their sexuality with clergy or other adult leaders in their faith communities. Almost half have not disclosed their sexual orientation to their parents. And nonheterosexual teens who regularly attend religious services were twice as likely as heterosexual teens to have seriously considered suicide. We have known for more than thirty years that at least one third of all suicides to teens are to gay youth.
Our young people are dying because we are not speaking out for them. Ask yourself honestly, do the LGBT youth in your community know that you welcome and support them? How would they know? Would they come to you as their minister, rabbi, or imam to talk about these issues? Would a LGBT youth feel welcome in your faith community’s youth group? What have you done to make sure that these youth know they are loved and supported, that you understand that they too are God’s children?
Finally, Haffner issues a call to clergy to bravely speak to the issue, from their pulpits, this coming Sunday. Please read her full article and consider how you and your congregation may become part of the solution.
I cite a quote below that is a meme (ie, viral pronouncment of solidarity in this case) that is circulating around the internet which emphasizes the need to be an inclusive church and to cast aside homophobia and scripture (ie, personal interpretation) sanctioned bullying:
These are the reasons we cannot ingnore, shun and bully the GLBTQ community. Too many suffer in silence, not because they are sinful, but because we live in a society ruled by heteronormative privilege. It is easy to lump everything that deviates from that norm into “wrong” merely because it is different
Sexual orientation is about identity. To discredit it as a preference or a choice only perpetuates the undercurrent of intolerance and hate that pushes these young people to the brink. It’s no wonder some have nowhere to turn if they are rejected by parents, peers, employers and church. Why wuold you think there is hope when your church tells you that GOD hates you? How would any of us bear that horrible burden.
If you hear something enough times, it’s pretty hard to convince yourself it is not true.
Some traditional poster pulled out the parable of the sheep and the goats in one of Obie’s previous posts to use as a blunt object to whack around at will. But I think it is time to revisit the parable. It’s about hospitality, about being kind to others and offer confort and acceptance when others provide none. And tolerance is about offering that hospitality.
Pastor Sue Sheffer-Meyer talks about Cross-shaped living in many of her sermons and how it directs us toward that edict of hospitality. She first creates a line upward signfying how we serve God. She then makes a horizontal line intersecting it to complete the cross and tells us that this is where we serve each other. Our needs and opinions. Those are the edicts that matter most.
And I join Obie in challenging those to step away from 16th Century opinions and embrace those suffering with tolerance and acceptance.
And I feel for those who are children of LGBT households!! They grow up with the taunts and the barbs and even if their own church is supportive, they turn away, because so many have been vile “in His name”
http://ncronline.org/news/justice/minn-pastor-challenges-nienstedts-dvd-campaign
Fr. Michael Tegeder in Bloomington, MN is saying the same thing about the anti-gay marriage DVDs produced by his diocese:
“He recalled the theme of a recent sermon he’d given on the rich man and Lazarus. The names of the rich and famous are easily known today, he said, “but Jesus turns that around in this story. It’s the rich man who doesn’t have a name.” In the story, Tegeder said, Jesus also wants to expand the idea of brother. What struck him in the DVD campaign, he said, “is that there were no names in it. It’s all ideology, all a theoretical viewpoint.”
He couldn’t help thinking, he said, of the two gay men in a long, committed relationship, who have adopted two boys “out of a hell hole of a Russian orphanage” and recently spent thousands to help one of their sons overcome a learning disability.” One’s view of the issue, he said, changes profoundly when you get to know people’s names and their circumstances.”
There are so many regular commenters here who will go on at length about how the ELCA is in trouble, the ELCA is losing members and churches, the ELCA is losing money, the ELCA is nearly defunct, the ELCA is theologically unsound, etc.
But once you get to talking about doing right by LGBT people – they’re gone. Suddenly they have nothing to say. And that tells me a lot.
Ok, I will wade into this, but with the admonition that if everyone, including myself, becharitable and gracious in their comments and not personally attack others.
Any sane person would say any kind of bullying is wrong. I don’t care what side of the theological spectrum you are on, it is just wrong. Same is true on any civil rights violation.
Yes, gay people can do good, I firmly believe that. Non-believers can do good, as can Muslims and Hindus. We can all do good. We are also all sinful, and therefore fall short of God’s glory.
As for those who disagree with the ELCA, just as you cannot stereotype straight or gay people, you cannot stereotype all who disagree. Some are mean and nasty and very judgemental, some have been gracious while being firm, some believe they have no other choice but wish there was another way.
Ann, I agree with you, because months ago I made a commitment not to talk ill of the ECLA or her leaders.
However, one can certainly have a variety of opinions on this issue and despise the bullying and civil rights of our fellow Americans. Not all who disagree on this issue would support in any way, by any conceivable means, violence or invasion of privacy of others.
Jeff, I think that what many of us are saying is that the “party line” of the LCMC, NALC and other organizations is inherently violent toward LGBT individuals. People who are judgemental, gracious but firm, or wishing there was another way are adding to the very heavy burden that LGBT people carry – particularly when it comes to their relationship to religion and/or the Christian church.
I also don’t think that anyone is saying that LGBT people aren’t sinful. I think we all believe that everyone is sinful. I don’t think there is anything sinful on the face of things about being gay or about a gay person seeking long-term monogamous relationships. And I suppose that’s where the disagreement begins.
Thank you, Obie. This is an issue that is really important for our society and our youth. It is very much time for our churches to be part of the solution, but too many of them (across the Christian spectrum and in the ELCA) are part of the problem. The impact of language and ideas about others needs to be considered and addressed, and understood beyond just a literal and direct application of those words in themselves. It must be understood that things like much of Pr. Sorum’s response to Bp. Chilstrom don’t address the problem because they are the problem. It is that sort of approach to the questions that drives gay and lesbian people, especially teens and young adults, to distraction and dispair, and which gives reason, justification, and excuse to bullies to carry it just one step, or more, farther.
I’d love to see a program or movement of congregations to work against bullying, including or even especially anti-gay bullying, but not something about bullying in the abstract or in general, but one that addresses the roots that provide reasons and justification, however tenuous, to the behavior. and one that recognizes the biggest problem is not bullying that becomes physically violent, but the psychological impacts that Cody Sanders speaks of.
Even if we cannot agree on a moral and ethical appraisal of gay and lesbian relationships, I would hope we can agree to seek a maturity of character and life that allows for differences and doesn’t impose, belittle, or insist on its own way.
Where the potential for bullying and/or violence, no matter how subtle or overt comes from the premise of caveats such as.
These are official talking points from many of America’s mainstream Christian denominations. They are riddled with scapegoating, calls for “confrontation”, and God’s supposed “refusal to accept.” While some will see this as a theological edict to dismiss the GLBTQ community, others see it as a call to arms. It gives the green light to harass, hurt, maim and even kill because it is “against the will of God.” Some see these declarations as a green light for discrimation and violence. It’s bullying in the name of God.
This headline appeared on CNN.com today – “Christian group pulls support for event challenging homosexuality” Here’s the link to the full story – http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/06/christian-group-pulls-support-for-event-challenging-homosexuality/?hpt=T2
In a nutshell – “All the recent attention to bullying helped us realize that we need to equip kids to live out biblical tolerance and grace while treating their neighbors as they’d like to be treated, whether they agree with them or not,” said Alan Chambers, President of Exodus International, the group that sponsored the event this year.
Glory be! This is a MAJOR acknowledgment by one of the most vocal anti-gay “christian” groups in the USA, that their anti-gay statements, rallies, and literature have spun out of control and innocent people have been killed because of their previously issued hate filled propaganda. Hopefully this change of their published attitude reflects a deep seated change of heart. I sincerely pray that it does.
Ann you commented,
“There are so many regular commenters here who will go on at length about how the ELCA is in trouble, the ELCA is losing members and churches, the ELCA is losing money, the ELCA is nearly defunct, the ELCA is theologically unsound, etc.
But once you get to talking about doing right by LGBT people – they’re gone. Suddenly they have nothing to say. And that tells me a lot.”
I don’t know if you actually believe that, or are trying to make a point, but that is simply not true. There is no way around it, it is false to make that claim. The truth is not that those who are opposed to the ELCA direction have nothing to say in regards to the lives of LGBT people, the truth is that those in favor of the ELCA decisions won’t listen. When I explain my problems and struggles with the ELCA decisions, I am immediately tuned out and told I don’t care about the lives of LGBT people.
I would strongly affirm both Jeff’s and Stephen’s post and ask that people read them closely and really “hear” what is being said. It really is difficult to have any conversation about the issue when you are lumped into the group that resorts to violence and hate about LGBT person’s and probably many other “groups” they do not understand. I will go back to a point I made in another post, the ELCA has outlined at least 4 acceptable ways of viewing the issue which covers a wide spectrum of thought and said “we recognize that there is no consensus on this issue within our demonination”. All we have done is allow “congregations who choose to do so…” to move forward with the 2 issues addressed at the CWA. One would think by reading that this was a win/lose when that is completely opposite of the intent. So when those of you are discussing decison making or churchwide philosophy of this issue please realize that decisions made in your congregation may be totally different then those made in another ELCA congregation down the street, and at the end of the day both have been lead by the Spirit. Frankly, as you read the deep feelings expressed on all sides, one is not surprised that we have issues as a denomination. ELCA leadership did us no favors by setting it up in this fashion.
@Stephen Johansson
@jon
Neither of you understands the gist of this post or of the comments that follow.
Keith’s link to the CNN article about the reversal in course of Exodus USA is significant because this organization is implicitly recognizing that their “solution” has been part of the problem. In more subtle yet destructive ways, the “traditional” approach of dealing with LGBT youth in our congregations is problematic, whether characterized as “love the sinner but hate the sin” or “gracious but firm” (Jeff).
Ann says it well:
Mark adds,
Stephen, you add nothing to the conversation other than to suggest no one listens to you. What is your solution to the problem of teen angst over sexual identity and suicide?
Jon, what is there to hear? What is your solution?
@Randi Leirvik
An article today discusses a long term and broad study that suggests children of lgbt families do quite well, thank you:
But, to your point, the one distressing issue for kids of gay parents is:
I didn’t see the TV show “Glee” this week, but an article suggests it spoke eloquently to gay aversion to religion as a consequence of religion’s aversion to gays.
@Obie,
Obie, please don’t put words in my mouth. My comment about “gracious but firm” had nothing to do with the way we treat gay people individually , it had to do with those who had decided to leave ELCA or are in the process of doing so, and how they treat those in the ELCA. My point was people can disagree and even leave without being nasty.
More assumptions…………….
@Jeff
Your point that we can disagree without being disagreeable is well taken and commendable.
In your earlier comment, you said,
Now, you are clarifying that this refers to various negative attitudes toward ELCA folks and not toward gays. I’ll accept your distinction.
What then is your solution to the problem of teen angst about sexual identity?
I’ve been away a couple days on a much needed vacation. All I can say is that whenever you can put a name and face on a LGBT person and get to know the person, it makes a difference in one’s attitude. Is the person kind and considerate ? Is the person ill with HIV ? Is the person flanting his/her sexuality or living a quiet life with it ? We can’t put all LGBT people in a bushel basket and dump them in the ocean or the Great Lakes because each one is a unique person just as you and I are. What is different ? Maybe what they do in bed ? But does that affect us ?
I have to say, and I mean this in the most charitable possible way, that Jon, Jeff, and Stephen are making the point for me.
This isn’t about churches or individuals leaving the ELCA and staying in the ELCA. This is about the LGBT kids who are sitting in the pews of your churches, no matter what denomination you affiliate yourselves with, and what they are hearing from you.
It is incredible to me that you can’t stop talking about how CWA 09 hurt your feelings.
@Obie
I would meet with them Obie, as I have over 22 years of ministry with many who have struggled on this issue and many others. I would tell them I love them with Christ’s love and will be there for them. I don’t believe in rep therapy. I would tell them that our society focuses only on our sexual identity as one component of life and that as a child of God they are loved and that I will walk with them wherever they need to go. The same as I have for teens who are suicidal, male teens who have gotten teenage girls pregnant, and for whatever stage they are at.
I am sure there are some who disagree with CWA 2009 who would take different approaches.
Ann, the only reason I brought this up was because it came up in the discussion in regards to to they way those who disagree with the ELCA stereotype. I didn’t initiate this thread. I am over any hurt feelings and ready to move on. I might suggest that the compassion you show for others you also show to those wo disagree with you on this issue.
As Brian McLaren shared, extreme liberals can be fundamentalists with different beliefs. What I tried to share before being shot down is there is stereotyping everywhere.
I am done …thanks
If believing that we need to change the way our churches and clergy treat LGBT folks, especially LGBT youth, makes me a fundamentalist, then sure, I am a proud fundamentalist. But I don’t think that’s the case. And I don’t think I have presented myself as less-than compassionate to you. Impatient about the fact that you won’t discuss the issue at hand, yes.
I don’t like that kids commit suicide because they believe that even God doesn’t love them. I don’t like what the church has done to people I know personally and grew up with. It makes me heartsick that when I tell LGBT people of my acquaintance that I go to church, they immediately shy away because they assume that means I hate and judge them. But I know they do that because most “Christians” treat them that way.
And incidentally, why would one assume that this is a liberal/conservative issue? I wouldn’t consider myself a liberal in any sense of the word.
@Stephen Johansson
Stephen commented, “When I explain my problems and struggles with the ELCA decisions, I am immediately tuned out and told I don’t care about the lives of LGBT people.” Might you consider, at least for a time, that there might be a good and valid point in that? Listen carefully to your own comment here: “When I explain my problems and struggles…” Maybe this response is a challenge to turn the direction of your thought elsewhere. As followers of Christ are called to care for our neighbors, and to put that concern before our own selfish desires. We certainly do this imperfectly, myself included. We can thus all use the reminder to refocus our concerns. Might it be that rather than focusing on whatever struggle one may have in oneself here, the proper focus is indeed on the lives of actual and real people whose lives and persons are being turned into an issue?
At least here, where what is at stake are the lives of LGBT youth (and adults), and the matter of harassment, bullying, physical violence, or psychological and spiritual violence, this question of focus is indeed a most necessary and important challenge. Taking up the challenge, I think, has an important role to play in being a part of a solution rather than a part of the problem.
@jon
Jon, I think it is important to note that the ELCA social statement Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust doesn’t so much provide “4 acceptable ways of viewing the issue” as it describes 4 notable ways that people within the ELCA view the issue. That is, in that section of the document, it is not providing sanction to any of those points-of-view but is being descriptive. That is not, I think, an unimportant distinction.
@Jeff
Jeff, I have seen you make a number of references to Brian McLaren’s suggestion that, as you state it, “extreme liberals can be fundamentalists with different beliefs.” But your application of this statement is not particularly clear. If it is applicable to this, then somehow the label “extreme liberals” is also applicable. But to who? And why? And since the language you use is “can be” I wonder when it does apply and under what conditions this might be true, but that also makes me wonder if one should really read “can be” to really mean “are.” Finally, I’m curious about the application of “fundamentalist” here, as it doesn’t seem to be coherent with what various fundamentalisms as a phenomenon have in common. See, for example, the descriptions of these commonalities in the work of The Fundamentalism Project described at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentalism_Project) or by Karen Armstrong in The Battle for God (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/a/armstrong-battle.html?_r=1) This all leaves me puzzled over what your intended message and meaning might be.
Mark- Thank you for pointing this out. The call to think of others before oneself is the call of Christ. Time and time again I put my own thoughts and desires on a pedestal. Thank you for calling me out. To Obie’s question about what to say to the issue of teen angst over sexual identity and suicide, I would listen, listen, listen. I am 22 years old, I have friends who have struggled with the very issue addressed. I have had friends come out to me, tell me their stories, and share the daily pain they feel. My solution is for the church to listen, to love, and to most of all share the good news that Jesus Christ came to free us from ourselves. I understand that you don’t believe that Jeff, me, and others “get” this issue- or however you want to phrase it- but the truth is, we don’t live in this black and white, conservative, legalistic world. We live in the same world you do, and what we are trying to do above all is to be faithful to the one we have surrendered our lives to, Jesus Christ.
@Mark
My comments center around the fact that there seems to be no distinguishing between those who may not agree about the clergy leadership rules in the ELCA since 2009 and those who bully, hate, torture, or hurt gay Americans.
Are there people who disagree with the ELCA who are hateful? Absolutely. Are there people who agree with it who are also hateful? Absolutely. McLaren’s point is we all pick and choose those whom we exclude or judge.
I have stated before that using Luther’s Two Kingdoms, there are many who may disagree about church polity and who should be pastors who also affirm civil rights for all Americans and even civil unions. I happen to be one. Painting the broad brush of “bigot” against everyone who disagreed with CWA 2009 will mean that at least 50% of the ELCA members and pastors need to painted with that brush, if the last survery of HSGT before the vote was accurate.
The point of this is that just because someone disagrees with clergy issues doesn’t mean they condone any form of bullying or harassment of any kind, to anyone, regardless of the people or issues involved.
Finally, your link to Martys’ project shows the definition of conservative fundamentalism. Martin Marty is a great scholar, and great speaker. I have heard him many times. He is also very firmly in the progressive camp. McLaren’s point is that liberals can be as closed minded as conservatives. That’s all.
@Jeff
You don’t need to reply to me if you don’t want to, but I’m saying that these are all different points on the same continuum. The notion that gays and lesbians are somehow not good enough to be pastors if they also want a lifelong committed relationship can be a contributing factor to gay kids feeling horrible about themselves on one hand, and, on the other hand, to bullying, hating, and hurting directed toward gay folks by people who aren’t.
And the fact that you have no intention of causing any of this through your actions doesn’t change the fact that it happens.
I will never forget when my mother told me about how demoralizing it was when she told her childhood pastor that she also wanted to be a pastor someday, and he told her she wouldn’t be able to do that because she was born female. It’s not all that different for LGBT people, some of whom are called to ministry whether we’re comfortable with that or not.
Ann,
I will respectfully not comment, because anything I can say or would say would just be twisted around into something else. We respectfully disagree. As I said earlier, I don’t make disagreements into anything other that , and will speak well of all. I think my comments have made it clear we are not on the same continuum, and don’t feel a need to agree on this issue. My comfort level has nothing to do with any of this. I am one very small piece of a much larger creation.
In the past 4 billion years, God has allowed a lot of changes in the earth, in the universe, and some in people too. We are still going by rules that are 2000 to 3000 years old meant for a time when pigs had diseases we could catch from undercooked pork , when homosexuality was part of pagan religion in Rome, when women weren’t to speak at church meetings ( because the Jewish mothers would get too emotional ?) etc. The more I read this site and others , the more I think religion as we have been taught at least needs some updating. Our faith in Jesus Christ is our age old hope but how many people are there who listen to the Holy spirit speak to their hearts and minds ? To me the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father and Jesus all wrapped up in an inseparable Trinity. Isn’t it amazing that God even cares about us ? Surely the Bible is a guide but I don’t see how all of it applies to life today.
“When anyone says the Holy Spirit is doing a new thing, let it be tested by what is written in Scripture. “-Martin Luther
Yes, Jeff that is one of the tests of the spirits to know if it is from God. However, we need to interpret it in today’s context. Of course , if what we are picking up is not in line with scripture it could be the Devil, the world, or our own thoughts.
@Jeff
Luther was a great man, but he was not the only reformer. Luther lived in the late 1400’s and early 1500’s . My great grandparents came from the same area where he lived. They used oxen on their farm. Does Luther or the Bible say we must still use oxen ?
@Lilly
We have been over this before. It is the silly shellfish reasoning, which is specious at best. I am not going to rehash this Lilly….there are many points to counter what you have to say, ranging from Luther’s Two Kingdoms, which allows us to use the tools of culture and reason while holding onto 2000 years of apostolic teaching, to understanding what is timeless in scripture and what is not. Been there , done that.
@Jeff
ok 🙂
@Jeff
I am not exactly sure just where you stand on the LCMC issues but it seems to me that the Word Alone people were expecting us to take the Bible literally and not let reason play a part in the church beliefs. This has been a hard issue for me to handle. My mom came out of Missouri synod believing that God struck people dead with lightning if you did the wrong thing or believed the wrong thing. I do not want to go back that far in that kind of spirituality. Yet whenever one uses a scientific principle to explain something, there will be someone in the church who will be upset.
@Lilly
I agree. We are studying Genesis right now…I believe in evolution, as long as it is not defined by no Creator or we emerged from the ooze….. our kids are healthier and stronger today than even 40 years ago.
The key is understanding what is timeless and what is not. Before anyone gets ruffled, I understand that this is the core of the new debate on human sexuality…some believe marriage is the standard and that there are timeless truths about human sexuality, others do not…
Thanks Jeff. Some years ago there was a debate among the “Jesus Freaks” in a Bible study I was in. It was about evolution. My answer was and is “God did it. ” When we get caught up in 6 days or 4 billion years, a lot of people don’t realize that time is different on each planet or don’t know what a “light year ” is. When we contemplate this “Our God is an Awesome God”.
So far as sexuality is concerned, I would like to think that if my ex son-in- law ever wants to be a Christian again, I would hope he/she can find a church that will accept her.
Mark Christianson wrote:
>>I’d love to see a program or movement of congregations to work against bullying, including or even especially anti-gay bullying, but not something about bullying in the abstract or in general, but one that addresses the roots that provide reasons and justification, however tenuous, to the behavior.>>
I think it’s pertinent to point out here that Lutherans Concerned/North America is committed to making every Lutheran congregation a safe place through the Reconciling In Christ (RIC) program (www.lcna.org/ric). We believe that it’s crucially important for congregations to offer a clear, intentional welcome for people of all sexual orientations and gender identities, welcoming them as people who share the worth that comes from being unique individuals created by God.
Now, the RIC program is not specically an anti-bullying program. But I do think, nevertheless, that it can and often does address root causes of the types of anti-gay sentiment that can lead to harrassment and/or violence.