I had coffee recently with the chaplain of St. Olaf, one of Northfield’s private, liberal arts colleges and an ELCA school with deep roots in American Lutheranism. His student based congregation is a Reconciling in Christ (RIC) congregation (open and affirming toward gays), but he said that status is old hat. Gay rights, including gay clergy and marriage equality, are no longer issues for this generation, he said. A fait accompli. De facto if not yet de jure. As baby boomers like me argue, this generation has moved on.
Just last week, a lesbian couple in the twin cities, after first being banned from processing together in a high school social, were welcomed enthusiastically by fellow students. Last fall, another twin cities student, a gay youth whose article in the school newspaper was banned, was later elected homecoming king. By the example of their experience, they hasten the inevitable change that is becoming matter-of-fact.
Another young man spoke eloquently recently about his personal experience. The nineteen year old college student from Iowa spoke before a legislative committee that is considering a constitutional amendment to overturn a ruling by the Iowa Supreme Court a couple of years ago authorizing gay marriage. This high-achieving student spoke of his experience of growing up with two moms.
Hear him speak.
Hi Obie,
Right on as usual. Your reflections are confirmed by several comments on current data in a new book, American Grace, etc. by Putnam.
According to the campus pastor, what has this younger generation moved on to?
@Pastor Cary
That wasn’t the nature of the discussion. The point was that the issues of gay clergy and marriage equality were essentially settled for the students, no longer hotly debated issues as in some circles.
@Obie
This is another myth in current thinking and sociological circles. While I have no doubt that the younger generation, which my two kids are a part of, looks upon ALL people with grace and mercy, that doesn’t mean they agree with everything..case in point..
In the book “Unchristian” (which is all about the twenty and unders and their views and faith), the authors point out that MANY young people DON’T agree, especially in Christian churches. They point to the fact that the largest youth groups are no longer in mainline churches (average size of 12 youth in ELCA per congregation active in youth ministry), but in the non-denoms and evangelicals. While those youth welcome all, it doesn’t mean they agree with the party line of the ELCA.
Secondly, this is a continuity issue, not static. As young people age, many become more conservative. Some become more liberal. The hippies became the yuppies. Many who voted for McGovern voted for Reagan and Bush. Not all, but a lot. So stating this is a “non-issue” for youth is like saying they will never change.
Granted, I would be the first to agree (and I do agree) in civil unions and legal rights for all. I don’t agree that scripture should be reimagined or church leadership be subject to anything goes, so there are changes, but not as much as some make with the broad brush strokes you have painted, Obie.
@Phil Eaves
According the the “American Grace” promotional website “Young people are more opposed to abortion than their parents but more accepting of gay marriage” If the wisdom of our youth is worth noting, maybe we need to rethink the whole abortion issue. Or maybe in some matters their elders know better and in other matters they don’t.
This is good news. Some say (hopefully?) that today’s tolerant young people will turn into tomorrow’s older antigays, but I’m not so sure. They key thing is that after you see gay people as simply fellow students and co-workers, they forever cease to be the scary ‘other’ and become just another variety of human. And gay people are living openly now more than ever, so more experience is being built up. I can see why someone might want to vote for lower taxes when they start making more money, but I can’t think of a reason why people will suddenly start disliking a class of other people who never did them any harm.
I had a number of my young people do the “non-denominational, evangelical” thing for a few weeks. They found the music good and intertaining but the theology weak and they were turned off by the abundance of law and lack of Gospel. As a former youth worker at the large E Free church in town told me, “there are as many leaving the back door as entering the front door.”
I’m confident that the issue of gay/not gay clergy living with their chosen partner will go the way of other “not really very important” things in the church – things like fist fights in the aisles over the question of whether or not to use English in worship services! The evil slanders spoken – in a foreign tongue – against the “Englishers” have long been consigned to the garbage dump, though you might be able to still find them in old diaries. The real point is that the young lead the way and will have the final say. They have heard the arguments on this issue, and made their collective decision. As the Pastor of St. Olaf College said, this is a non-issue. Move on. There’s other, much more important work to do – like, living The Good News!
@Mike
@Jeff
Two generations ago, people would have thought it abominable for people of two different races to marry. Today, that’s a non-issue. People grew older yet didn’t change their view that mixed-race marriage was acceptable.
Growing older doesn’t necessarily mean you grow more conservative on social issues. It might mean you grow more conservative on economics and political issues, but not necessarily on social issues (I would venture not necessarily on the others, but that’s a different point). People are multi-faceted and simply because you’re conservative about economics doesn’t mean you’re conservative about social issues. Just because you’re liberal socially doesn’t mean you’re not fiscally conservative. Not all people aren’t one-dimensional.
Younger people today are growing up with gay stars, friends, and family who are leading “normal” lives, and to them it doesn’t seem odd. It is normal. I think to predict that the gay-affirming youth of today will become the gay-tolerating-yet-tradition-affirming adults of tomorrow seems like a pipe dream. Maybe I’ll be wrong, but I don’t see it happening.
@Daniel,
But research proves otherwise, Daniel. Many of those hippies DID also turn conservative socially, not just economically.
Look, you may be right, I may be wrong, or some truth in both. All I was trying to point out is that many youth do not agree with what was stated above, especially many Christian youth.
As to gay tolerating vs. traditions affirming, I think there are many folks who believe in full civil and equal rights, including civil unions. This is the right of every American. But many also believe that religious marriage and the church have the right (just as some churches have the right to set their standards to redefine marriage or scripture) to affirm leadership issues and marriage in a traditional way.
You bring up mixed race marriage, but interestingly enough it is the Latino , Asian, and African American churches in the USA that tend to be the most conservative on this issue. The ELCA has seen a mass exodus of African, Asian, and Latino churches. It will become an even older and whiter church than it already is.
@Jeff
I don’t think it does us any good to pigeonhole entire racial categories or immigrant groups as being pro-gay or anti-gay (nor should you assume that these communities of color you point to as anti-gay bastions would necessarily think that mixed race marriage is a good idea). Incidentally, there is a robust debate going on in the African-American community right now about whether the black church is relevant anymore, and the social conservatism of the institutional black church is one of the main reasons people question whether it still holds the same kind of power that it once did.
The question of “tradition” is so problematic. Marriage is constantly being redefined. As is Scripture. As is the role of rostered leaders in Lutheran churches. Unless you marry men to multiple wives, refuse to accept the validity of women pastors, and preach in support of slavery, you’re bucking tradition in pretty significant ways. I think sometimes “tradition” actually means “what I’m comfortable with.”
@Ann
Pretty broad brush strokes you paint with, Ann.
We all have “traditions”. By your post, every tradition we have ever had should be redefined, or changed. That is simply wrong. Many traditions are good. That is true not only of families and individuals, but also the church. Do you constantly change traditions in your family? Never have the same holiday or special occasion traditions?
That being said, some are not good. The question is always “tossing the baby out with the bathwater”.
Your comments about the African American churches are ill informed. The church is still a bastion in that community, like it or not.
The facts are facts on the multicultural ELCA churches. You can’t change that. And it is not being pro or anti gay to “respect the bound conscience” of those who voted no. There was much ballyhoo in MN (I was there) about we are “one” church no matter how one voted, it is obvious now that is one highway and those who don’t conform should leave or aspersions are cast upon them as something less than a follower of Jesus.
Which is just as judgmental and law oriented as the very people they claim are doing the same regarding marriage or rostered leader changes.
@Jeff
It would be nice if you went into conversations without assuming that your interlocutors are uninformed. I assure you I’m not.
Traditions are fine. But last I checked, we as Lutherans don’t consider them holy and we don’t worship them, and there are a lot of other things that are more important.
@Ann
You offer no proof on your assumptions about African American churches. I am heavily involved with both African American and Latino churches nationwide, inside and outside the Lutheran denominations. We don’t agree.
@Jeff
Look up an essay called “Is the Black Church Dead?” and the subsequent discussion. It hit CNN and other mainstream media outlets. Obviously there are any number of perspectives being offered about the topic – but – as I said, it’s a discussion going on.
The fact that you seem to have missed this doesn’t make me uninformed.
@Ann,
Oh no, I didn’t miss it all. I read the article from the Princeton prof a while back. I also heard and read Dr. Anthea Butler’s from U of Penn response on NPR. As an African American women she doesn’t agree at all, and points out Gaude isn’t even a churchgoer. And then there is …
According to an article in the New York Times:
“I am sick and tired,” went an e-mail message from the Rev. Dr. J. Alfred Smith Sr., pastor emeritus of Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland, Calif., “of black academics who are paid by rich, powerful ivy league schools, who have access to the microphone and the ear of the press pontificating about the health of black churches.” The e-mail message continued, “None of these second- or third-generation black academics talk to us in the trenches. They are too elitist to talk to us.”
So it seems that the “debate”, such as it is, is fed by people who are out of touch with their own situations, and don’t even particpate in what they write of. Seems to be the same problem the ELCA leadership has, thinking they have a corner on the truth and all us yokels in the pew and pulpit and sadly misinformed neanderthals not living in New York, Chicago, or LA…..
And I never said you were misinformed. You were the one who brought that up. I said I disagreed with your conclusions, that’s all.
@Jeff
When you led your church out of the ELCA, you said you had not spoken ill nor would you speak ill of those who remained. Please follow your promise and stop spreading the mythology that CWA09 was a top down decision. You sink to demagoguery when you attempt to deligitimize the decision of the majority. I don’t live in New York, Chicago, or LA and neither did the vast majority of the voting members at CWA09. If you want to avoid being treated as a “yokel” (your term), then stop spreading misinformation.
@Obie
It is not speaking ill to state an opinion that leadership is out of touch. Obviously, the leadership did not have a pulse on the people, and many people in favor of the votes ultimately didn’t vote for them because they did understand the problems that would ensue. Nowhere have I questioned the faith or service of individuals. Stating that leadership is out of touch is not unusual, we see it in both parties in Washington, we see it in the RC and other Protestant churches, and we see it in many places, including most recently Egypt.
It seems we live in a time where people can make comments all they want on this blog and others about those who may hold more traditional values, including questioning their faith, compassion, and caring, but when the shoe is on the foot all of the sudden it becomes unbearable. You yourself have stated numerous times many comments on this blog denigrating those with differing viewpoints. So don’t chastise me for simply noting that leadership may have been out of touch.
Today, Faith Lutheran Chapel in Clintonville,Wi had an organizational meeting. We elected our first set of officers. We will still be a SAWC until we grow a bit. It is refreshing to be in a little church where everyone is excited about forming a new church and no one has to have it done “their way”. This church feels like a family and maybe like “Cheers” where “everybody knows your name”. We are moving on.