Lutheran CORE prepares for its August Convocation when it will birth a new denomination called the North American Lutheran Church (NALC). The WordAlone Network has become WordAlone Ministries and has revised its strategy away from influencing the ELCA toward supporting dissidents, but with an apparent tilt toward CORE and its progeny, prompting a Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC) supporter to whine, “I thought that Word Alone was going to be supporting both LCMC and NALC.” Meanwhile, the LCMC eagerly welcomes the vast majority of defecting ELCA congregations into its loose association while sniping at the anticipated high church structure of NALC: “ … this is why I am glad to be LCMC … Among the members of the [NALC] Ministry Processes Working Group are six former ELCA bishops,” and “We certainly don’t need any more rings to kiss.” At local congregations pondering defection from the ELCA, dueling representatives of LCMC and CORE make appearances to advocate for their preferred brand of schism. (LCMC quotes from “Friends of LCMC”, a Google online discussion group)
Meanwhile, in central Minnesota, the local newspaper is running a letter to the editor that wonders why such a small percentage of eligible voters actually voted in two local congregations that voted to sever ties with the ELCA.
[P]erhaps the support for leaving the ELCA wasn’t quite as overwhelming as the church leadership might have people believe.
The writer then questions the level of pastoral manipulation behind the process:
[D]ecisions are often made based upon information shared with the members through the pastor. Indeed, the direction that any church takes often reflects the direction the pastor wishes to take that congregation. Truly, if only one point of view is presented to the congregation through the pastor and the elders of the church, and contrasting views aren’t embraced or encouraged, it would stand to reason that the church membership would vote in line with the church leadership.
One day when the smoke clears, it will be interesting to correlate pastoral leadership and congregational defections. From the evidence available thus far, it would appear that defecting congregations almost always are led out of the ELCA by their pastor. Talk about shepherding the flock.
Finally, the latest statistics from the ELCA (June 3) are reported in an email received from the office of the ELCA Secretary:
As of June 3, we have been advised that 419 congregations have taken first votes to terminate their relationship with the ELCA (some congregations have taken more than one first vote). Of these 419 congregations that have taken first votes, 283 passed and 136 failed. Synods also have informed the Office of the Secretary that 161 congregations have taken a second vote, 140 of which passed and 21 failed.
I have previously characterized the number of defecting congregations as a trickle and not a torrent. Ten months after CWA09, that characterization still holds true, and the vast majority of the 10,400 congregations of the ELCA remains in place. While the dissidents have stirred up hard feelings and created conflicted congregations, they are far from “realigning North American Lutheranism” as CORE professes.
As we approach the the birthing of NALC and the one year anniversary of CWA09, it will be curious to watch the strains on the publicly professed coalition of LCMC, WordAlone, and CORE. A commenter on the “Friends of LCMC” discussion groups suggests:
Where much of the 20th century was spent with “mergers”, bringing many smaller synods into one large tent, the early years of the 21st century are being marked with many of these mergers being “undone” in a way, with smaller synods once again emerging, each with its own unique polity and structure to it.
Reminds me of the old saw, “if you keep leaving a church to find another that is a perfect fit, soon you will be a church of one.”
Hey Obie,
Having just heard a little bit from Carlos Pena on this, it is also important to say that of those congregations that took a second vote and passed, not all have left the ELCA either. Some are still part of the ELCA due to the fact that some must have Synod Council ratify their actions. As I mentioned in my blog too, Carlos said that he received many negative letters from individuals (many the same person), but he has received very few if any supporting the actions of August. I know this is a place to encourage people to write a letter of support to Carlos/Churchwide Offices.
I can only speak to my Synod (Upstate NY). Of the 2 congregations that left, both had stopped giving to the Synod/ELCA years ago. They were smaller congregations with pastors who were very much against everything. One congregation that took a vote and it failed is under pastoral transition. Another congregation looking into CORE, but have only had 6-10 people at their meetings (monthly meetings with some CORE big shots as the keynote speaker) is under pastoral transition. One congregation looking to leave is a congregation that is also out of finances and might dissolve before anything happens. There is talk of 1 congregation waiting to see what happens with NALC, it is multi staff, but I don’t know if it is pastor driven or congregation driven.
So, 2 left, 1 failed, and 2 are possible (1 very low support and 1 dissolving possibly) and 1 waiting.
Yes, Obie, I might be at that church of one right now. 🙂
Obie, I think that if you check all of the votes you will find that it is a minority of the members making this decision. Also, what percentage of those leaving are among the smallest congregations in the ELCA?
If I did the math correctly … 140 departed congregations out of 10,400 ELCA congregations, works out to ca. 1.35% (about ONE percent). That doesn’t indicate a ringing endorsement of quiting the ELCA! The only thing that amazes me is the inordinate amount of attention the quitters and door slammers are getting. I think I’d better write an email of support to Carlos Pena, and Bishop Hansen, and express my support for CWA09.
I would love for you to track how many of those congregations that were influenced to leave by their pastors had a male pastor. I served a congregation as pastor that is now notorious for being the first in my synod to leave, and I did NOT lead them in that direction, but they were led away by their former (male) pastor who continued to have ongoing contact with many of them. I know of other women pastors who also were suddenly without a call when their congregation voted to leave despite their guidance and leadership. Former ALC congregations? Preferring a “Herr Pastor” style of leadership? Hmmmm…
I am also encouraged by the fact that only 1% have left. But I will pray long and hard before accepting another call to a formerly ALC congregation…
@Jeri Gray-Reneberg
Of course there are exceptions to the rule, which the dissidents will quickly cite (c.f. Jaynan Clark the woman president of WordAlone), but I think there is a sexist element in the dissident groups. To their credit, LCMC leaders have distanced themselves from the overt sexism of CORE as evidenced in the writings of CORE spokespersons such as Nestingen and Benne and also in the NALC proposed constitution which gives a shout out to those who still oppose female ordination.
@John Dornheim
The anecdotal evidence is all over the board. Sometimes a high percentage of voting members turns out for the vote but often there is a significant silent majority (I hate to use that term) that simply doesn’t show up. Are such folks apathetic or simply don’t want to get involved in the messiness? Or, in some cases are they intimidated by the pastoral leadership, fearful of being judged unbiblical heretics?
It is also true that the departing congregations are all over the board–many small and rural but also some large “megachurch” style congregations. Community Church of Joy of Arizona is a prime example of a megachurch that had its foot out the door a long time before CWA09.
@Justin
It surprises me to hear that Vice President Carlos Pena has not heard much from ELCA supporters. As you and Keith suggest, perhaps it is time for us to let him and Bishop Hanson know that there are lots of us out here who have their backs.
I haven’t heard too much talk of congregations leaving the ELCA in the NW Washington Synod. I know of one that will probably be voting soon and another that wants to leave, but can’t because they were on mission support and would have to pay back all the money given to them by the ELCA.
Here is a reversal on the normal story for you. I know for sure of two congregations this occurred with in Eastern Wisconsin. The pastors stated that they were not leaving the ELCA. The congregations voted to leave anyway. In both of those situations, the pastors were informed by the congregations that they were invited to continue serving the congregations until they were able to secure another call within the ELCA. The congregations were not interested in placing the pastors into a situation of hardship, and acted with integrity and love.
In both of those cases the pastors have now received other calls.
Compare that with the treatment of a pastor in western Wisconsin. He did his level best to remain neutral in a battle that was arising between two factions of the congregation, one seeking to leave and the other seeking to stay. He informed the bishop that he would not stay in the ELCA, and the bishop told him “Do whatever you need to do to get a call, then.” The congregation took a vote, the vote failed, the congregation split. For family reasons, the pastor needed to stay in the community until the end of the school year. A representative of the Synod office, a wealthy member of the pro ELCA faction and the reconstituted local church Council negotiated a severance for him. He could stay in the Parsonage, and receive his salary, as long as he didn’t preach *anywhere* and didn’t do any ministering.
How does one seek a call at another congregation if one cannot preach? And now, tonight, I have been asked if I will go and visit a member of the new church. She is dying of cancer. That pastor asked if he could go visit her, and the local ELCA Church Council reminded him that if he did so he would be in violation of the agreement and he would lose his severance.
Oh for the love of God!
Trust me. There is more than enough evil and mischief to convict everyone of us on both sides of this issue.
@Tony Stoutenburg
Since this issue has come up and you are quoting Eastern Wisconsin, it would have been nice if our associate pastor here in Clintonville had been able to fullfill his contract without being told by the senior pastor that he had make a choice- that he couldn’t serve two masters. Some in the congregation don’t believe this happened, but I happen to know the former associate (visitation) pastor’s wife pretty well. He resigned under pressure and for some of us it was the last straw for us in the LCMC church.
Tony:
You said, “Trust me. There is more than enough evil and mischief to convict everyone of us on both sides of this issue.”
I say Amen.
We can all tell horror stories of bad behavior on the part of people who claim to worship the One who said “Love one another.” One-upping will only lead to more finger-pointing and division.
Keith:
You said, “I think I’d better write an email of support to Carlos Pena, and Bishop Hansen, and express my support for CWA09.”
And Obie said, “It surprises me to hear that Vice President Carlos Pena has not heard much from ELCA supporters. As you and Keith suggest, perhaps it is time for us to let him and Bishop Hanson know that there are lots of us out here who have their backs.”
Here’s my plan: I’m going to write letters to Bishop Hanson, Carlos Pena and my synodical bishop, telling them that I support the Churchwide decisions, pray for them regularly, and am thankful for their leadership. When I write these letters, I will post them on my own blog along with the office addresses of the all three. Maybe we can encourage others to write as well. Let’s get a little ELCA love started.
“One day when the smoke clears, it will be interesting to correlate pastoral leadership and congregational defections. From the evidence available thus far, it would appear that defecting congregations almost always are led out of the ELCA by their pastor.”
Of course, pastoral leadership and congregational continuence might also correlate. Isn’t leadership what we expect of pastors?
Dear Mr. Holmen,
Thank you very much for the comments you made regarding the letter to the editor I recently wrote commenting on the vote of the two local ELCA churches to leave the ELCA. While I felt compelled to make those comments, my main goal of the letter was to offer a legitimate suggestion as what course of action these two churches should to take to insure that there would be at least one ELCA church in the community in which I live. If my suggestion is followed, perhaps then my wife and I can once again join a Lutheran Church in town.
@Michael Crary
Thank you Mr. Crary for writing that letter to the editor. It would be nice if the churches follow your suggestion. Here in Clintonville a SAWC has formed and is going to go forward. For the summer at least, they have moved 8 miles out of town to the local Bible camp. When I considered other churches , I realized that I am leaving some of the social connections I have here and will have to make new social connections in a new church at age 73. That is a little scary . I will eventually decide which church to go to but right now I need a little more time.
Good “luck” in sorting it all out.
Thank you, Lilly, for your comments. When my wife and I moved to Hutchinson in 1996, we joined one of the local Lutheran churches. When the the ELCA voted to partner with the Episcopalians a short time later, one would have thought the sky was falling. All we heard at church, week after week, was how this was a bad move on the part of the ELCA because of the need to have an Episcopalian bishop present at the ordination ceremonies of new clergy. Varying points of view were never presented, and out of all of this, Word Alone surfaced, bringing where we are today. My wife and I couldn’t take the brain washing anymore, so we left the church. Even though my wife and I have found some comfort in worshiping with the Methodists, mainly due to an outstanding woman pastor, we miss our Lutheran home.
Good luck to you also, and I am sure you will make the right decision. By the way, 73 isn’t old. Take care.
@Michael A. Crary
Dear Michael, methinks there is a little hyperbole here. I know all of the formerly ELCA pastors in Hutch. SOme of them pretty well. You say, “All we heard at church, week after week, was how this was a bad move…”
ALL you heard? I am sure that you heard it, but if that was all you heard, then I do not think you were listening carefully. Those are faithful, Gospel driven pastors (and there are some on both sides of this and other debates.) You may well have heard that, but I bet you also heard about the unconditional love of Jesus and the forgiveness of sins for all who have faith.
Oh my. Just went back and reread the whole post.
ROTFLMAO!
“Meanwhile, in central Minnesota, the local newspaper is running a letter to the editor that wonders why such a small percentage of eligible voters actually voted in two local congregations that voted to sever ties with the ELCA. …[P]erhaps the support for leaving the ELCA wasn’t quite as overwhelming as the church leadership might have people believe.
Obie is using the EXACT SAME COMPLAINT that he criticizes other for using. This is nothing more or less than the the-CWA-is-not-really-representative-argument on a local level. would you care for a little sauce for the Gander?
So Two thoughts on attendance at congregational meetings. Most congregational membership numbers are inflated anyway. Baptized membership is a silly number for Lutherans in particular, and the church in general. That is why people who are serious about studying church size study average church attendance. That is the number that matters for church function, governance, systems analysis, etc.
Second, as that brilliant theologian, Allen Stewart Konigsberg once said, “Eighty percent of life is just showing up.”
Dear Mr. Stoutenburg,
Thank you for your comments. There is no doubt in my mind that all the clergy that I have come in contact with at the local Lutheran churches are faithful and gospel driven individuals. After all, if they weren’t, why would they chose the minster as a profession? But it would seem to me that if they truly wanted their congregations to make such a important decision as leaving the ELCA, both sides of the question would be fairly represented in an open forum. Perhaps Christ the King did this, and maybe even Faith did this the second time around. But when I was at Faith, as a church body, we pretty much got the pastors’ point of views regarding CCM, and that was it. Instead of accepting the vote at the ELCA convention, the pastors began to lay the ground work for leaving the ELCA, which came to pass these past couple of weeks.
We can discuss all we want about how we arrived at the point where we are at, but the question is, where will the faithful ELCA members attend church now that both Hutchinson ELCA churches have voted to leave the ELCA? Why can’t one remain ELCA for those of us who would like to attend an ELCA church?
Hope you’re having a good day.
Interestingly, I heard recently that the pastor’s wife here at Christus told some ladies that her husband always wanted out of the ELCA because he couldn’t have his friend (or father-in-law ?)ordain him and he had to have a bishop do it. I haven’t checked with her to see if that is fact but it does make sense. Then why did he stay in ELCA churches for as long as he did ? Now there are a lot of things going around that church that may or may not be true. I have found a couple “story tellers” in our dissident group . That is what makes it so hard to pick a church.
As I recall, back when we got pastors right out of the seminary in the ELC, the bishop did ordain them. Maybe this wasn’t true in the LCA ???? Oh well, enough on that. He got his way and I am still upset about it.
@Michael Crary
Thanks Mr Crary for your comments.
In places where the vote has gone the other way, LCMC inclined individuals have picked and moved acros town and started new churches. So you do have that option. I am sure that the synod would be willing to offer support to you as they have in Elk River.
But let me offer up an analogy for what you are asking for. On 42% of 77% of registered voters (less than a third!) elected Al Franken to the Senate. I have relatives who would gladly take Dean Barclay getting to vote on 16% of the issues before congress if they could have Coleman vote the other 42%. But that is not the way the process works.
@Tony, I wish all situations were like that where breaks were clean. But what about circumstances when the “majority” won’t even allow you a clean break? I want to know how the heck one thinks they are honoring Christ when a church starts a formal separation process and the LEADERSHIP of the majority (in this case the LCMC) is on record trying to ensure that the ELCA won’t gain a foothold in the community ever again? How about move on and stop trying to destroy a congregation any further??
Meanspirited?
Crazycakes in need of a hefty dose of something?
Or just plain EVIL?
Tony, please reassure me that this isn’t part of the LCMC playbook and just a local permutation.
Because poisoning the proverbial well in your own town appears to be an all time low. So much for local evangelism and eccumenicalism. “THEY DON’T WORSHIP GOD!” Yes, i’ve heard it. From my own former church’s so-called leadership. I guess the push for local evangelism only counts when people fill the preapproved pews and not elsewhere.
This is the exact type of behavior that pushed me out of organized religion for a decade. I want my children raised in that environment why??
That said, I am refusing to let anyone bully me. Even though our vote defeated the measure to leave the ELCA, we are still leaving and forming a new center for worship. I am glad to be leaving that negativity behind
@Michael Crary
Tony’s right (Wait, twice in a month I agree???? Start gloating, Stoutenburg 😉 Elk River is great example of how to maintain an ELCA community. We’re looking to them as well as we are moving forward.
There are ways to bring back the ELCA presence to your community. I doubt that both Hutchinson congregations were unanimous in leaving the ELCA. You probably have enough interest to start up a synodically authorized worship center (SAWC) in your community. Instead of starting as a brand spanking new mission congregation, you can “bud off” a host congregation in the region. It allows you to maintain your affiliation with the ELCA as you get back on your feet. Contact your synod, and they may be able to give you more information
Np, Mr. Stoutenburg. I am always happy to offer my two cents worth.
How about looking at it this way? In the votes taken at the ELCA conventions, the elected delegates, in one instance, chose to partner with the Episcopalians, and in the second case, voted to adopt a statement on human sexuality. Why can’t the churches who are deciding, or have decided, to leave the ELCA simply accept the vote of the majority in attendance at the conventions? Isn’t that the purpose of holding these conventions? Isn’t this how the process is suppose to work? Does it make a lot of sense that every time a church disagrees with the outcome of a synod convention, that church will simply decide to leave the synod?
Hello Kelly,
In part, that’s exactly what I proposed in my letter to the editor. I suggested that those members wishing to leave the ELCA form one group at one of the local ELCA churches- well, former ELCA church- and those members wishing to remain a part of the ELCA join forces at the other church, which, by the way, was the church that made the decision to leave the ELCA on a very close vote, decided by one questionable ballot.
@Kelly
I assure you. Local permutation. I am sorry.
@Michael A. Crary
Kelly’s right. (What’s happening here?!?) You might even find support at one of those churches to offer worship space or other kinds of support while the new church gets up and running.
As for leaving, this is deep in our DNA. We are Lutherans after all. In 1900 there 17 Norwegian speaking denominations in this country, and every one of them thought the other 16 were heretics. Lutherans split. It is one of the things we do best. And I have an article in the latest LCMC newsletter that shows that that is not a bad thing. (Similar article on my blog.)
My theory is, churches need to be less religious and more spiritual.
Someone check to see if it is raining goats or something. Tony and I keep agreeing 😉
Apparently I need a fun nemesis in my life that I can spar with from time to time yet keep it light.
@Kelly
If we can’t disagree and still be kind and loving, I’m pretty sure the Lord ain’t real happy with us.
Some of us have observed on this blog in several other places that counting the number of congregations leaving is one way of measuring dissent, but I think a far greater indicator comes in three other areas where we have little information to date:
1) how many members have left ELCA churches for other Christian churches, hurting the membership and giving patterns of a local church? While certainly not true in all churches, maybe not even a majority, that type of statistic isn’t reflected in congregational votes to leave. It will be reflected in annual reports next year, and giving patterns this year.
2) Churches in conflict that have not left. In our synod, 20,000 ELCA members are gone by 10 congregations that have left or are leaving, but there are five other congregations , some quite large, that have split. One had 900 regular worship attendance last summer, now it is 300.
3). Those who chose to remain in ELCA who support the actions; those who chose to remain in name only but don’t support them and indeed redirect mission support.
When all is said and done, the LCMS lost about 25% of its’ membershi in the seventies, and still continues on. The ELCA will survive, and may not lost 25% of membership, but if it loses 25% of income that may be an issue.
I think there are many pastors on both sides of the issues who have chosen not to take stands one way or another, and in the end, that probably is not a strong stand to take. I oppose the actions of last summer, but respect those who support them and take a stand more than those who are wishy washy.
@Kelly
If they don’t want an ELCA church in Tomah, where are the city limits? Put it right outside the city limits. When Richland Center got a bowling alley, it had to be built outside the city limits because at that time, Richland Center was a dry town. There is more than one way to “play” the game. Do meet, do worship, do keep a nucleus group going. God allows these challenges to faith. The early Christians met in the catacombs. The Christus dissidents met at the old Shoppers Guide building for 3 months. The nucleus group stuck together and the ones who weren’t committed went somewhere else. The synod has recognized that and is now helping them to get going.
Lily, it comes down to the fact that the can’t keep us from gathering to worship. We simply won’t give them that power over us to bully us.
Our SAWC will have a Church of Record from a neighboring town so that, even though my current congregation, is marginally ELCA in name alone, its leadership has no authority over any decision making process of our SAWC. And we plan on worhshipping in the city limits to make it easier for some to attend.
Sounds like it will work. We do have freedom of religion in this country even if some would like to take that away. It is interesting that this whole LCMC/Word Alone thing has turned out to look like a political coup like the takeover in a third world country. Our SAWC is getting help from a Green Bay church which should help the cause.
Tony, that is the best comment I’ve read online lately! And exactly what a group of us said as we were being shown the exit door at our church by the pastor and council as they planned how to leave the ELCA.
They didn’t care about other points of view and wouldn’t answer questions. We were completely silenced. Kind and loving? I saw not one example of that type of behavior. It was an embarassing example of Christianity. I shudder to think of what a non-believing outsider thinks when he sees that type of behavior.
Nor should anyone. When Grace was formed, they spent 18 months praying for every church in the area, one per Sunday. The made it through twice.
@Tony Stoutenburg
We have had pouring rain here in Clintonville after a rather dry spring. I decided to check on the rainfall in Northern Wisconsin. Maybe you should pray for rain ???? 🙂
Tony , I am just trying to bug you a little but seriously, we do have freedom of religion in this country. I am glad I have that right. I have learned some things from this ELCA/LCMC/CORE fight. I have learned that I am truly “Free in Christ” and can worship Him in any way I want. I still believe after all the conversation, that each of us has our own concept of God and our own interpretation of the Bible. I came out of a home where the Bible was strictly interpreted. I discovered along the way that my concept of sin was anything my mother didn’t go along with or want me to do. Many of those things were not sin.
I prefer a church where there is flexibility in belief and where sin doesn’t pound you from the pulpit but yet we are reminded of God’s will. I am finding some New Age things that have crept in to some of the churches (another denomination’s pastor) and I can’t go along with that either. While the Holy Spirit does reside in us through our baptism, we are not God, we are only His hands. I expect to go on with my search this summer and while searching, learning. Peace be with you.
See this article in JLE:
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Journal-of-Lutheran-Ethics/Issues/May-2010/The-Core-of-Lutheran-CORE-American-Civil-Religion-and-White-Male-Backlash.aspx
@Beth
Thank you Beth for bringing this to our attention again. I saw Pahl quoted but never read the entire article until today. I especially liked that he said that the Biblical view of marriage was polygamy.
His views reflect what I have been thinking and feeling ever since Word Alone “took over” our church here in Clintonville. They aren’t Lutheran CORE but they might as well be.( They voted to join LCMC) It is scary to have a pastor who reflects these views.
This morning I revisited the SAWC of Clintonville now meeting at Imago Dei camp. This group needs prayer. I hadn’t been there since one of their first meetings.
There is no LIFE there except in the Bread and Wine and the fairly good sermon by the pastor. There were three little boys there that added life.
The group needs a musician who can play piano or guitar. Please pray for this group that we may become a moderate ELCA church in the area. We don’t want to be super liberal but we want what was good about the ELCA. Please pray that whatever “curse” may be upon us is lifted and we can become a viable presence for Christ in the Cloverleaf Lakes area.
BTW, Obie, this is not just a mis-characterization: it rises to the level of untruth. Your write:
“The WordAlone Network has become WordAlone Ministries and has revised its strategy away from influencing the ELCA toward supporting dissidents, but with an apparent tilt toward CORE and its progeny, prompting a Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC) supporter to whine, ‘I thought that Word Alone was going to be supporting both LCMC and NALC.’”
In it’s full context, which I am not sure how you came to read, the original listserv post read:
=============
Robert Benne wrote a piece in First Things
that contains this interesting line:
> The Word Alone Network has become Word Alone Ministries, which
> provides educational and worship materials, mission opportunities, and
> theological education for the church that it founded earlier. That
> church, or better, that “association of congregations,” is the
> Lutheran Congregations in Ministry for Christ. The LCMC was formed
> during the fracas over an agreement, between the ELCA and the
> Episcopal Church, /Called to Common Mission/, which required
> ordination to the historic episcopacy for Lutheran pastors and
> bishops. That requirement was anathema to the mostly Midwestern, low
> church Lutherans. The LCMC now lists 410 member congregations, with
> 191 having joined since last August. Among them are some of the
> largest Lutheran churches in America.
I thought that Word Alone was going to be supporting both LCMC and NALC.
Is this a change?
anyone who knows the answer to that is welcomed to offer it.
================
As any honest observer can see, the comment you quoted and characterized as a “whine” that WA was tilting toward CORE is in fact the complete opposite: since WA had previously stated that it was supporting both, I was curious about the comment by Benne said it would *not* be supporting CORE.
So not only are you somehow accessing the private correspondence of others and quoting it publicly, you are misrepresenting (lying about? confused by?) its content.
@Tony Stoutenburg
Since you were the author of the listserv post, I defer to your interpretation of your own comment. It came to me through a “google alert” and I clicked through to the Google group without any problem. If your Google group is not meant for public consumption, perhaps you should check its security.
This morning I heard about another area church that has taken its first vote to leave the ELCA. This church is the largest of a 6 pt. parish. And this vote was about the gays.