Yesterday, I blogged about Hope Lutheran of Fargo. At Hope’s congregational meeting, the membership passed a resolution overturning the decision of the Pastor and the Council to withhold funding of the ELCA.
Turns out the same thing happened at St. Luke’s of Cottage Grove, Minnesota, according to a news report from the South Washington County Bulletin. In a comment to yesterday’s post, John Petty suggested, “yet another case where the pastor took the lead in opposing CWA [Church Wide Assembly] and fomenting dissension within his or her congregation.” John’s comment applies to the St Luke’s situation as well. According to the news report, the church council stopped funding the ELCA synod and national offices following a rant from the pastor:
In late August, when the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America met for its churchwide assembly in Minneapolis, St. Luke pastor Tim Housholder gave an impassioned speech to the group about his opposition to allowing gay clergy.
“I stand here finally on God’s holy word which calls homosexuality sin and calls all of those living out this lifestyle to the cross, not to receive tolerant love, but transforming and life-changing love,” Housholder said at the conference.
The news report indicated that the membership voted last Sunday at the annual meeting to partially restore congregational benevolence to the synod upon recommendation of the church council.
A second story that requires a follow up comes from the Northeastern Iowa synod of the ELCA. Just before Thanksgiving, this synod become a hot topic in the Lutheran blogosphere because the synod council passed a couple of resolutions that rejected the pro-LGBT decisions of the CWA. At the time, the Lutheran CORE website trumpeted the actions of the synod council as a harbinger of an anti-CWA groundswell. Turns out CORE was just a tad premature inasmuch as the Synod Council has now reversed course and rescinded its own resolutions.
Blogger friend Susan Hogan at Pretty Good Lutherans hosted a lively debate at that time, and she has reposted the discussion. The rescission was reported in a letter from the synod council vice president Karen Armstrong to the synod on Feb 1.
In her letter Armstrong wrote, “Our council received many responses to these (synod council) actions. There were some who misinterpreted our actions as being defiant of the churchwide decision, and even suggested that we had voted as a synod to leave the ELCA. Nothing could be further from the truth.”
She wrote that others were concerned that the synod council made decisions “that placed the council as a higher authority than the local congregation. There was also a concern that the synod council had placed itself as a higher authority than the churchwide assembly.”
It may be worth noting that the three Householders (David, Mike, and Tim) all made similar public statements in their mega-churches and communities after the CWA. It will be interesting to see if David’s church and Mike’s church hold similar votes to restore funding to the larger church ministries.
David Housholder, from what I understand, is serving a non-Lutheran church and is officially on leave from call (that’s what the ELCA Roster Lookup system says, anyway). David is serving at Robinwood Church of Huntington Beach, CA.
At a meeting Sunday Jan. 31. Christus Lutheran of Clintonville, WI voted 177 to 29 to join LCMC. The second vote to leave the ELCA is scheduled for Monday Feb 8 at 6:30 so the bishop can be there. I counted the 29 no votes and there was no way I could make more out of it. We have over 800 confirmed members but this was who showed up. It probably wouldn’t have mattered anyway because our Word Alone pastor has most of the congregation agreeing with him. Funds have been withheld from ELCA since the first volt in October. I don’t think this is the way to go but the appeal of being an almost independent Lutheran Church appeals to this group. It will be interesting if our somewhat inexperienced pastor can administer such a church.
Has anyone notice that the vast majority of ELCA pastors leaving need to take their church with them?
I do not believe it’s a bibical thing as much as these pastors need the resources these churchs have.
I do not see a huge list of callings for pastors in the LCMC so it would seem to me that the LCMC need the churchs and I do not see many pastors leaving without their churchs!!
If it really is a bibical statement to some of the ELCA pastors then just resign!!
Diane — I’ve heard your question ‘way too often in recent weeks — and never as anything other than a sweeping generalization. Do you have some concrete facts (beyond anecdotal examples or unsubstantiated quotes from denominational officials) to back up your assertion that “the vast majority of ELCA pastors leaving need to take their church with them?” If so, please post them.
One can blame the pastors. One can blame the congregations. If one points to anyone, three figures point back to ourselves. Our now LCMC pastor was complaining about apathy and he was glad that I was at least interested. Yesterday, I was talking to another member of this congregation and he asked me if they ever did vote. The number of times the date was changed was confusing to him. When I told him that a small group of dissenters were meeting on Sunday morning , he exclaimed “Aren’t there enough churches in this town.? Now there are more churches than taverns.”
Oops, I meant 3 fingers point back at oneself. This week’s Marion Wi. “Advertiser” local newspaper has a lengthy letter to the editor bashing homosexuality and quoting lots of scripture. This is the next area that is likely going over to LCMC or Lutheran CORE. This is the town up the road from me. I called a friend and asked if she had heard anything about it and she said that she had heard that there are 50 churches leaving in the ELCA Central Wisconsin synod. (I haven’t checked her facts ) This is an area of Northern European ethnic pride and White Supremacy. It is largely very Republican. It is easy for a pastor to get his people to go along just by saying the three letter G word.
@Church Grandma & Grandpa
Check the LCMC website and see how many pastors are needed!!
BTW
I didn’t count on anyone for data, I got mine by searching myself….and I NEVER said,” the vast majority.”
Your email seemed a bit uptight! Why?
What does your data say??
@Dianne
Yeah, I counted 52 people listed on their website seeking a call. Considering that they’re only about 300 churches currently–I think that is what I last recall their congregation total being–that is many more pastors than is necessary. About 1/6th of their active pastor roster would have to retire/leave in order for those waiting for a call to receive one.
@House of Brat
Yes……I keep noticing that it is the churches as a whole leaving.
How many ELCA pastors have resigned leaving their churches?
Dianne wrote: Has anyone notice that the vast majority of ELCA pastors leaving need to take their church with them? I do not believe it’s a bibical thing as much as these pastors need the resources these churchs have.
Some have left their congregations which did not vote to leave the ELCA. Of course, one can point to many instances of the ELCA and its bishops being very concerned with the resources and behaving in ways that have little to do with a Biblical faith or practice of their office as well. I’ll share some stories if you want.
And yes, for those congregations that look to leave and wonder if they can get another pastor, we have always had more pastors available than congregations.
Last, perhaps the desire to leave with the congregation is about Pastoral (shepherding) leadership; a care for the flock.
@Tony Stoutenburg
Not necessarily. I know of a congregation where a pastor has only been there three years and in his quest to leave the ELCA and go LCMC he has allowed an atmosphere where those who want to stay with the ELCA (folks who have been members for decades) feel they have to leave their church because the atmosphere has gotten so contentious. And this is after they already had a first vote on the issue (on leaving the ELCA), which failed. He certainly didn’t make the situation any better when he was interviewed about the situation on tv and allowed the interview to take place in sanctuary instead of his office. He also invited non-members to attend forums so that they could weigh in with their two cents on the situation. (And when I say “non-members” I do not mean those who have been attending his church but have not joined. I mean people who have never even attended his church before.) It’s not necessarily about “a care for the flock” when there is an ego and a my-way-or-the-highway attitude involved.
@House of Brat
It would be interesting to examine the pastor’s role in each of the ELCA congregations that has chosen to leave. My sense is that very few congregations choose to leave despite pastoral support for the ELCA; on the other hand, I suspect that there is a very high incidence of pastors who led their flock out the door. Is this shepherding or a wolf in sheep’s clothing?
@ Obie: So those who hold the traditional position are “a wolf in sheep’s clothing”? So much for the respect of the bound conscience.
@Tony Stoutenburg
Tony, you’re overstating my comment which does not apply to “those who hold the traditional opinion”. My comment is limited to pastors who choose to lead their flock out of their denomination, and even then I pose it as a question and not a statement.
@Obie, clearly, then, the answer to your question would almost certainly depend on the which position the answerer supports. 🙂
There are several cases here in Wisconsin of churches where the pastor did not support the move to leave, and the congregation split as a result. In one case, the vote failed by 4 (out of almost 180 voting), the pastor and a few folks have the building, but are going to be unable to keep the doors open long. The 120 or so are worshiping in a new (mostly) lay led congregation across town.
This is a tragedy for the ELCA (which I was an enthusiastic support of for years) and for Lutheranism in general. But as another poster observed, this is going to be slow motion. It is not that a lot of congregations are going to leave (for LCMC or CORE’s NALC); but the ELCA is still going to be closing a lot of churches in the next 5-10 years.
One ray of hope may exist in the proposal out of Calvary Golden Valley (available in the files section of our google group). They are encouraging the ELCA to find new ways of relating to congregations. Interesting read.
This is a bad ethnic slur but my dad who was born in Oslo, always said that a Swede was a Norwegian with his brain knocked out. It was partly because his blood father was a Swede who loved and left his mother. Well, it turns out that my dad’s mother also had Swedish ancestry. My dad didn’t say much about that when I told him. I think the same thing can be said for biases of many kinds. There is a song from South Pacific that says “You’ve got to be taught before its too late to hate all the people your relatives hate. You’ve got to be carefully taught. ” White European Americans seem to be especially bad at that. When I told my mom I had gone to the fruit market run by Italians, she was very disapproving. We lived among the Irish. They were “CA”. I learned biases early on from my parents but one I didn’t learn was about transgendered people because there was a woman in our community who dressed and talked like a man. She was a hard worker and was accepted as different but not bad.
@Lilly: Do you know why Jesus wasn’t born in Norway? God looked east and couldn’t find 3 wise men.
I’m 3/8 Norske; 1/8 Svensk and 1/2 European Mutt. 🙂
@Obie Holmen
In the instance I mentioned above, it is my understanding that the pastor at that congregation has also been preaching towards leaving the ELCA since before CWA ’09 such as “the ELCA is going against God,” etc. So I would say “wolf” in this instance.
European Mutt about says it. Me too. Thanks for the joke. I hope you realize that none of these theological things will make any difference when a super volcano blows up. Yellowstone isn’t that stable. Have you ever looked at the earthquake site. I do most every day. Not because of fear but to make me realize that we have to live with our earth and God’s creation as it is. Chile is still getting aftershocks every day and Haiti is still getting some. We don’t hear much about the 5 point quakes out there, but I am sure there is damage and people suffering. ELCA disaster relief has helped many. I hope LCMC gets organized enough to be effective in this area of charity. This is most certainly true.
@Lilly
Yellowstone is actually pretty stable. Geologically active yes but stable. Mount Rainier is more likely to blowup or have one of its giant lahars lay waste to the Puget Sound region in Washington before Yellowstone will blow up again.
If they both go we are in trouble. I don’t think Mt. Rainier is classified as a “super” volcano though. It could make a big mess. Mt. St. Helens was bad enough. We have only been through that area once but it was impressive. There is a bulge on the end of Lake Yellowstone that the geologists are watching. It grows a little every year. Only God knows if or when it will go off and I am not going to lay awake worrying about it. There was a lot of seismic activity in the area east of West Yellowstone this year. The quakes were small but frequent. We used to go there yearly but are getting too old. Anyway, as the Bible says, we know not when the Son of Man will reappear. God seems to use natural phenomena to do things even if my Bible study ladies didn’t like to hear that.
Mt. Rainier may not be a “super” volcano like Yellowstone, but the likelihood of Rainier blowing up or a giant lahar burying tens of thousands of people is very high. Rainier is considered the most dangerous volcano in the US, even more dangerous than Yellowstone to its southeast. Last I recall, the odds of Rainier lahar burying large parts of the Puget Sound area in the average person’s lifetime was 1 in 9. (I’d play the lottery every day if I were told I had a 1 in 9 chance of winning the lottery in my lifetime, as I’m sure many people would.)
You can read more about it here: http://www.seattleweekly.com/2005-10-19/news/the-super-flood.php/1
There is a town southwest of Tacoma that keeps the school busses on standby outside the school, with drivers there, all day long. They have a lahar warning system and figure that they have no more than 60 minutes to get the kids out of the valley if it goes. I lived for 10 years at the end of the Columbia. We could see St Helens on a clear day. Rainier is listed as most dangerous, but I have heard geologists who are more worried about Sisters in Oregon and Mt Shasta in CA.
@Tony Stoutenburg
That’s probably Orting, and those buses and warning system won’t do much whenever the lahar hits. Those people are toast.
FWIW: All y’all got us to thinking — Wouldn’t it be nice if Jesus could just return before Rainier and/or Yellowstone explode … or before his church implodes? Go ahead, just call us Anna and Simeon. +8-} and +8-}
Yup, and before the “big one” hits in California. Natural disasters will always be with us. We have to live on the planet as it is.
Maybe the church needs to implode periodically. Even though we believe the Holy Spirit is leading it, humans have a way of taking it out of the Lord’s hands and doing what they want with it. Not long after the crucifixion another leader arose in the Holy Land and the Jews thought he was the messiah. They were badly beaten and the temple destroyed. Eventually Rome was converted but how did that go? Now we are fighting each other over issues which really may not matter that much. How God must be shaking His head and just lettin’ us do it for now.
This sounds exactly like my church!!!!
Sorry..fingers hit send too fast!!
I meant that what House of Brat said was like my church:
“Not necessarily. I know of a congregation where a pastor has only been there three years and in his quest to leave the ELCA and go LCMC he has allowed an atmosphere where those who want to stay with the ELCA (folks who have been members for decades) feel they have to leave their church because the atmosphere has gotten so contentious. And this is after they already had a first vote on the issue (on leaving the ELCA), which failed. He certainly didn’t make the situation any better when he was interviewed about the situation on tv and allowed the interview to take place in sanctuary instead of his office. He also invited non-members to attend forums so that they could weigh in with their two cents on the situation. (And when I say “non-members” I do not mean those who have been attending his church but have not joined. I mean people who have never even attended his church before.) It’s not necessarily about “a care for the flock” when there is an ego and a my-way-or-the-highway attitude involved.”
This seems to be a pretty well orchestrated political group in the church doing this.
Dianne :BTWI didn’t count on anyone for data, I got mine by searching myself….and I NEVER said,” the vast majority.”
@Dianne – Sorry we missed your earlier post, but we do note that your original post (March 23, 2010, 21:13) did include the words “the vast majority” — just went back to check and make sure. (Unless there are two Dianne’s among us.)
As for your perception that our e-mail seemed a bit “uptight,” it seems like a good dose of hard data would help everyone relax these days. Facts and attribution are important in separating news from inference, opinion and judgement. That’s all we’re asking for … otherwise, we’ll all just keep having a lively, but less than edifying, round of “dueling anecdotes.”
As for your perception that our e-mail seemed a bit “uptight,” it seems like a good dose of hard data would help everyone relax these days. Facts and attribution are important in separating news from inference, opinion and judgement. That’s all we’re asking for … otherwise, we’ll all just keep having a lively, but less than edifying, round of “dueling anecdotes.”
—————————————————————————
Would the judgement and hard data also include Homosexuals in the ELCA?
@Dianne —
You’ve asked: Would the judgement and hard data also include Homosexuals in the ELCA?
The word ‘judgment’ in the original posting was used in relationship to a sequence (Fact-Inference-Opinion-Judgement) learned in journalism school as a way of clarifying and distinguishing types of information.
IOHO, your question points all the more clearly to the need for keeping that old j-school sequence(F-I-O-J)in mind — regardles of where one lands on the issues that drive these conversations.
Yikes!!
Touch a nerve did I?
On to better things then this…..