What is Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC)? This question jumps to the fore with the realization that a turf war is looming between LCMC and Lutheran CORE/NALC. “LCMC and NALC will be splitting a small pie” in the words of one LCMC pastor who is skeptical of Lutheran CORE’s announcement of the formation of a new denomination to be called The North American Lutheran Church (NALC). It seems that some folks in LCMC are warning CORE/NALC, “don’t you be stealing our sheep.”
One LCMC commenter suggested that LCMC is “low church” while CORE/NALC will be “high church”. I assume this means LCMC congregations offer a non-liturgical worship style and LCMC as an “association” functions as a lesser ecclesiastical structure than the proposed “denomination” of NALC with a bishop at its head.
A perusal of the LCMC website certainly confirms their limited organizational structure. They apparently have a paid staff of two persons! Congregational autonomy is the watchword. LCMC publishes a list of certified pastoral candidates and a list of congregations seeking pastoral leadership, but that is the extent of their role in the call process. LCMC offers group health insurance and pension planning to pastors through third parties but without any subsidy or contribution from LCMC.
There is a “resources” page on the LCMC website which merely contains links to documents, videos, photos and other websites. LCMC has no colleges or seminaries, but they claim an affiliation with five listed seminaries that would seem to have a greater Baptist influence than Lutheran (two are Baptist, one is evangelical, one is a Lutheran online/internet entity out of Brookings, South Dakota (with a limited faculty that includes James Nestingen!), and the fifth is non-denominational but with ties to the Minnesota mega-church movement (North Heights, Woodland Hills, Redeemer of Fridley) and Fuller Theological seminary of California.).
Obviously, LCMC is conservative, and the website contains a “pastoral admonition” that “it is God’s will and intention that human sexual expression and fulfillment take place only within the boundaries of marriage between one man and one woman”. Their website also states:
Our association is firmly committed to accepting the normative authority of the Bible. We reject the notion that science, personal experience, tradition, or other human endeavors have equal footing with the Bible. We are certainly aware that these endeavors contribute to our conversations and deliberations, but the Bible must be our final authority in matters of faith and practice.
Actually, this is not as conservative as CORE’s statement about Biblical authority which fails to acknowledge any role for science, experience, or tradition. Also notably lacking in the LCMC website is the brusque harshness of CORE polemics. There is no condemnation of the ELCA as “unchurched” or “unbiblical”; in fact, there is no mention of the ELCA at all.
Many of the ELCA congregations that have voted to leave the ELCA or are currently in the voting process have already affiliated with LCMC, and their roster of congregations has swelled to around 300 in the US (covering 38 states). So, at this point they are still relatively small (for comparison, the ELCA has over ten thousand congregations and even the WELS has over a thousand).
I have limited background in actual LCMC dialogue but it appears to me that LCMC may be somewhat of a catch all for churches who want to be semi-independent. An LCMC church in Waupaca WI area claims charismatic practice as does another Waupaca Co. church. I am still not completely sure where my pastor (soon former pastor ) is coming from other than wanting to be an Orthodox Lutheran and not wanting to pay benevolences to the ELCA. I saw a quote that seems to indicate that there is more than “one flavor” in LCMC. I do know that the Lutheran charismatics I knew back in my Jesus freak days (in the 70s)became quite literal in their Bible interpretation. Some of them split with the ELCA then. Maybe I just opened another can of worms for LCMC ??? Too bad.
An interesting quote from the LCMC website “We reject the notion that science, personal experience, tradition, or other human endeavors have equal footing with the Bible.” Except when they endorse the ordination of woman, then they ignor Scripture and fall back on tradition. I once served with a female pastor who would site the tradition of the early church to support the ordination of woman, but would turn red with rage if when discussing the ordination of openly gay people. Even the most conservative will pick and choose the Scripture to fit their agenda.
It’s usually pointless to get into Biblical arguments in a setting like this… I’d much rather do it face to face over a coffee/beer.
But Ray…answer me this:
1. Does the Bible speak consistently about homosexuality?
2. Does the Bible speak consistently about women in leadership?
1. The answer is yes. There is a consistent message that homosexuality is sinful.
2. The answer is no. There are many instances of women in very important leadership roles (i.e. Deborah, Phoebe, Priscilla).
It’s not about picking and choosing. It’s about consistency. And by the way…insert any other strawman into question #1…like slavery, polygamy, etc.
Sorry… it should be: “insert any other strawman into question #2”
I need a nap.
Since we are asking questions, one that hasn’t been answered no matter how many times I ask is- How can the word “homosexuality” appear in the Bible, since the first time it appears in print isn’t until the 1800s?
The other thing is that there was no word in Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic for “homosexual.” How do you deal with that?
Zach,
I agree, this isn’t the best forum for such discussions, there are plenty of places on the web where this discussion has been raging for decades and the best thing that we come away with is a headache. I agree with your rational for the argument for ordaining females, however many talk of this understanding like it has been written in stone since the earliest days of our church, when in reality the majority of Lutheran in the United States didn’t begin ordaining women until the early 1970’s. The Lutheran tradition of my youth, the LCMS, along with the Wisconsin Synod and the Lutheran Brethren still do not ordain women. They choose to hold Timothy over the point in Scripture supporting women in leadership roles. Can we say that those faithful churchmen who argued so strenuously against women ordination were just wrong? Can we say that those faithful churchmen and women who argued so strenuously for women ordination were the Prophetic Voice that is often overpowered by those who refuse to change? Can we agree that the ministry of these women is Spirit filled and a gift from God? I know gay pastors who are also doing such Spirit filled ministry.
I was surprised when I went to seminary the number of male students who argued against female clergy. I know a couple of pastors who have left the ELCA and are now LCMC who argue against female clergy, however they know to pursue this in a new denomination would be politically incorrect so they remain silent. (One by the way would have rather gone to the LCMS, however his wife said she would not attend his church). Oh well, to early in the morning for this kind of talk, not enough coffee yet.
Wow, can you fellows become more mixed up ? Back when women didn’t have any way to support themselves except marrying their brothers-in- law or being a prostitute, the Bible got written down. Would you really want us to go back to that time ?
I just bought a little paperback put out by Windblown named “The Misunderstood God “. The first chapter is worth the whole price of the book. For instance have you ever considered that if God is love, one can take 1 Corinthians 13 and substitute the word God for love and have his attributes ?
I’m a schoolteacher not a pastor but at one time I felt the call. Maybe it is just as well I helped kids learn to read instead of leading people to a God I really didn’t know.
Let me clarify my last statement, so there is no confusion, by Greek I meant Biblical Greek.
Lilly,
NO I don’t want to go back there, I don’t want to back to a pre-1970’s church, I don’t even want to back to the Service Book and Hymnal or Lutheran Book of Worship! I am a pastor of “church refugees” people who are living life in recovery from addiction and who feel the church has left them, not the other way around. My folks don’t care that I am divorced, a bit gray, a little chubby, and probably wouldn’t care if I was gay, they simply want to hear the Good News of God’s Grace and how that Grace strengthens their recovery.
My point that I was trying to make, and probably didn’t do a very good job of it, is that we should never shut out the Prophetic Voice. As a second career pastor maybe God is calling you to a new career when you are finished teaching, She has been known to do that from time to time.
Thanks Ray. I like the SHE ! Since God is a spirit, why not ? I like your style.
The blogger’s analysis of LCMC is pretty accurate in what I’ve learned about the organization. One of the problems I see is in how they certify pastors. I wonder how you are going to get a Lutheran identity theologically going to a non-Lutheran semenary.It seems like the Lutheran identity piece comes in some sort of mentoring process after seminary (unless they attneded a Lutheran seminary). Of course, they may feel more comfortable with a seminarian attending a conservative seminary than an ELCA seminary. However, there are plenty of conservative confessional Lutheran pastors both in seminary and in the ELCA who are not planning on bolting to LCMC or the NALC. I guess this is getting lost in all of this discussion. Quite frankly, I find much of the rhetoric by both this blogger and the Nestingen types to be unhelpful. It reminds me of choosing between the political extremes of Keith Obermann and Sean Hannerty. It’s about the theological equivalent.
@Mark J. Mathews
I’d rather be compared to Rachel Maddow.
I came to the conclusion that the main difference between CORE (or NALC) and LCMC is this:
CORE has a major focus on Lutheranism and a minor focus on Evangelism.
LCMC has a minor focus on Lutheranism and a major focus on Evalgelism.
Mark, I agree with that there are conservatives who attend ELCA seminaries and when they graduate they still are conservatives.
Churches need to focus on the person they interview for the call and not on the seminary.
Oh and Obie, you are officially Obie Maddow. 🙂
@Jonathan – we’ll respecfully disagree with your conclusion that:
CORE has a major focus on Lutheranism and a minor focus on Evangelism.
LCMC has a minor focus on Lutheranism and a major focus on Evangelism.
Instead, we’d say that the ELCA has minored in both of these.
FWIW, As for us and our house, we’ve got feet in four camps right now: 1)ELCA, 2)LCMC, 3) CORE, and 4)STS. The common denominator of #s 2,3, and 4 is that have majored, in their own ways, biblical/confessional/theological integrity (aka Lutheranism) and evangelization in its fullest expression.
As for #1(ELCA), the way our congregation goes will determine what happens with us. It’s all about finding the best place (note: didn’t say perfect) for continuing to be faithful in all aspects of our calling as a congregation and as leaders.
RE: #2,3 and 4:
LCMC’s post-denominational structure works for our congregation. If a congregation wants/needs more than the basic LCMC structure, there’s always the LCMC Augustana District — a non-geographic, values-based district that’s focusing on mutual service and support for LCMC congregations. See for yourself: go to http://www.augustanadistrict.org/ . There are plenty of mission-focused avenues in LCMC too, so the congregation is not lacking in ways to suppport mission.
CORE provides a way of networking across denominational lines, remaining connected with folks who will, for whatever reason. be staying in the ELCA, and opening doors and eyes to even more mission possibilities.
Why STS, you say? Just as CORE provides a network of congregations, STS provides the supportive, mutually accountable brother-sisterhood of orthodox Lutheran clergy that’s focused on faithfulness to our ordination vows.
In another day and time, a one-size-fits-all denomination might have worked. That was then. This is now. When we remember that our unity is in Christ and clearly distinguish between satis est and adiaphora Augsburg Confession, Article VII) then having feet in LCMC, CORE and STS makes for a viable alternative to our one-size-no-longer-fits ELCA affiliation.
Grandma and Grandpa,
Thanks for your thoughts.
To be honest with you it sounds like you have created a Lutheran buffet. You pick and choose what you like from one group and then mix them all together.
You are so high on options 2,3,4 that I am surprised you are even considering staying in an ELCA congregation. I don’t know why you are waiting for your congregation to decide your path.
Thank you, Jonathan. Although we take exception to the image of buffet, we could, stipulate to the term and image of hanging on while being buffeted by those winds of doctrine.
Why are we waiting? We’re committed to staying the course, serving faithfully in our current call, and making the decision together with the congregation. Having feet in all four places is a reflection of the congregation’s diversity, too. Chalk it up to clarity about core (that’s lower-case, adjectival core) beliefs combined with willingness to sojourn in strange times, places and circumstances, and conviction that the Lord will lead.
It’s kind of like the prayer from Vespers in LBW (p 153)…
“Lord, God, you have called your servants to ventures of which we cannot see the ending, by paths as yet untrodden, through perils unknown. Give us faith to go out with good courage, not knowing where we go, but only that your hand is leading us and your love supporting us; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”
Glad for the conversation …. Peace be with you
A pretty good post and discussion. Only correction I would offer is that, while many of the early LCMC churches are involved in a freer worship style, we have an increasing number of “high church” and even some “smells and bells” people. It is an issue that LCMC leaves entirely in the hands of congregations to decide.
As for seminary training, that is an issue we are working on. But I had Baptist classmates at Luther who felt that their experience there confirmed their Baptist beliefs rather than, well shall we say, watered them down.
Thanks & Blessings
Tony
@Obie Holmen
Good one, Obbie. Best to you on your book. I would like to read it. Mark
@Mark J. Mathews
Thanks, Mark. If you’re serious about wanting to check out my book, it’s available at http://www.awretchedman.com or Amazon.
I think the seminary issue will be huge for both
I think the issue of seminary training will be huge for both LCMC and NALC. I find it very ironic that LCMC would even allow a candidate for ordination to attend an ELCA seminary. It seems to me the seminary has always been a battleground for conservatives in stemming liberal influneces (LCMS mid 70’s and SBC more recently). It will be interesting to see how that issue evolves.
Update. I visited the meeting of the dissident group here in our NE WI town. This is the group of 25-30 who voted against leaving the ELCA. It was interesting to get the update because there are a lot of negative things happening in this town. The little church chose a name- Faith. They( we) are trying to decide if we will be able to go ahead with a mission church. Right now it is a Synod authorized church. Some of them have heard that we are the “gay” church. One local funeral director has been threatened that people will take their business to the other funeral home because his wife helped start the new church. They (we ) need all the encouragement they can get. Send me an email and I will forward it to the people who are more in charge. Thank you.
Sorry, my email is private but if you want to send encouragement here, maybe I can copy and paste it to them. I see that 2 other smaller churches in our area will be taking their second vote on March 23. The church 6 miles from me has an interim pastor and they are affiliated with Word Alone. Their website says they will be taking a vote in April to decide which way to go with their call.
My husband is still enjoying his childhood UCC church and everyone greeted me today too. Nice.
@Lilly
I hope these folks can create the church home they need – I think it will be healthiest for all involved.
What they must not do is use the copyright license # of the congregation they left to produce their bulletins, as happened at least once.
For whatever negative things are happening, there are as many or more positive things – it’s a matter of outlook/perspective/attitude.
May God provide to all what all need.
“It seems that some folks in LCMC are warning CORE/NALC, “don’t you be stealing our sheep.”” That’s interesting since that is what the LCMC does with the ELCA churches. Why don’t they just start their own churches rather than try to convert the existing ELCA churches?
Actually Janet, nothing could be further from the truth. We are not about stealing, or protecting. We welcomed CORE congregations who needed a short term shelter while NALC was still a-borning, and many of them have stayed, since both denominations allow for dual rostering.
And while I cannot speak for anyone else, I have never initiated contact with an ELCA church to convert them. When members of a congregation contact me, I respond, and offer any assistance I can.
But make no mistake, when folks do leave to start another church, they are often very badly treated and spoken of as well. The problem is that “respect for bound conscience” just seem to be empty words.
TW, Obie, I have heard some info on the New Prague situation, but I was wondering if you had an update from the ELCA perspective.
Tony and Janet, I think you are both right in some ways but maybe what actually happens is closer to the truth. Now that it is nearly two years down the road here in Clintonville and the surrounding area, it is easier to have more of an over all perspective. It bugs me some that here under 150 members of a 1000 member church were able to take the congregation and all the assets and property with them into LCMC. Those of us who left to go to other ELCA churches or to form a new church are still the ones who are being bashed by some of the LCMC members. My husband was a good singer in their choir and they miss him. Faith Lutheran ELCA is not out to steal members from the big church but we will take anyone who is interested in joining us. I can see the sense in the small churches wanting to be semi independent- especially those who were aligned with the Charismatic movement, but to me the ELCA has some international programs and established resources that are good to stick with. Yes, there are some abuses in the ELCA but we are big enough to work to overcome them or at least fight to.
I have been researching the differences between the many Lutheran “branches”, as my husband and I have been searching for a new church to attend. We are in our mid-40s but believe in the old-school teachings that marriage is a union between a man and a woman, so are looking for a church that supports this belief. Don’t get me wrong, we have friends and even family members who are homosexual and we do not condemn their relationships. I feel that the “politcally correct police” are taking away the rights of many of us by saying we must accept all these new social changes. I guess I don’t understand why homosexuals just don’t start their own branch of church with their own beliefs and bylaws. Isn’t this how all the different relgions came about? Why must people insist on pushing their beliefs on others. We are all told we have the right to our own opinions and feelings, yet these new social issues are being forced down our throats. I do not force my religious or political preferences on others, and I wish that others would have the same common courtesy when it comes to their preferences. If homosexuals are so intent on being married, then why don’t they form their own church instead of trying to change ours. There are just too many fanatics out there, one way or the other, that tend to get up in arms when things aren’t done their way. In order for this country and its people to remain free to pursue the American dream of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, then no one should ever force their beliefs on another individual.
Interesting comment Terri. Now that I have been trying out other churches for a couple years now, I have to agree with you. I wasn’t happy when the ELCA voted to include the Extrardinary Lutheran Ministry which had set itself up as a separate church body, however, having a Transsexual in the family made me realize that I shouldn’t judge. It turns out that there might be a bigger problem in the ELCA and that is that some of the pastors and seminary folks are adopting Progressive Christanity. They are trying to make out that the Bible is just a bunch of myths.
I urge you to check this out .